Clause 1 — Powers of the Secretary of State

Part of Orders of the Day — Fire Services Bill – in the House of Commons at 8:45 pm on 3 June 2003.

Alert me about debates like this

Photo of Nick Raynsford Nick Raynsford Minister of State (Office of the Deputy Prime Minister) (Local and Regional Government) 8:45, 3 June 2003

We have had an illuminating debate that has shown clearly the division among the parties in the House. Mr. Hammond and his party will deeply regret the unattractive face of anti-trade union and authoritarian Conservatism that lies behind the amendment.

The hon. Gentleman said that Conservative Members had three main proposals. The first was a sunset clause, which we agreed to. The second proposal was a provision for secret ballots. We said that there was a case for secret ballots but that the mechanism proposed was neither workable nor appropriate, although we did not disagree with him in principle. However, the hon. Gentleman's third proposal is an anti-trade union provision with which we profoundly disagree.

It is essential to adopt a measured approach to solve what has been one of this country's most difficult industrial disputes in recent years, which is what the Government are trying to do. We do not pretend that we are taking an easy route or that it is not fraught with difficulties. Our response is measured and serious, and balances proper concern for public safety, which remains our overriding priority, with respect for people's rights to organise in trade unions and advance their interests in a democratic society. Our proposals are designed to help to secure a solution, whereas the Conservative party's proposals seem to be designed to create a more bitter and extensive industrial conflict and to provoke a serious breakdown in relations with the trade union movement in this country. I cannot believe that the Conservative party, on reflection, will want to continue to advocate the policies that we heard tonight. I also hope that the hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge will realise on reflection that his conspiracy theory about the Government and the Attorney-General is deeply unworthy and of no substance whatsoever. I hope that he will agree, on reflection, that the comment should be withdrawn.

The central issue is the right to strike. I remind the House that there is no statutory right to strike in the United Kingdom. On the one hand, there is no practical way to prevent people from withdrawing their labour or to force them to work but, on the other, people who do not work normally will usually be in breach of contract. The de facto right to strike is given by the Trade Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act 1992. It provides statutory immunity for striking workers and their trade unions so that they are protected from legal action on breaches of contract, provided that the industrial action is in response to a trade dispute and subject to proper balloting and notification procedures. In addition, the ability to strike is an important part of the freedom to associate under article 11 of the European convention on human rights. That is also germane to the debate although the Conservative party appears to have little or no regard for such conventions.

In the Government's view, employees' ability to take lawful strike action should be withdrawn only in exceptional circumstances. We have no plans do so at present in relation to firefighters. We have made it clear that the issue will be covered in the White Paper. Indeed, it was raised by the Bain review, which suggested that it be considered further. We will do that, but as the Deputy Prime Minister made clear on Second Reading our judgment is not in favour of removing that right from firefighters. I accept that it is a matter of judgment whether firefighters, like the police, perform a role that possibly justifies interfering with the basic right of any working person to withdraw their labour. Our judgment remains that they do not.

The fire service does, of course, have similarities with the police service, but there are also significant differences in the light of which we believe that anti-strike legislation would not be appropriate. There is a fundamental difference in the role of the police and fire services. The police, as enforcers of national law, must be independent and must act on behalf of us all. Furthermore, it has been demonstrated in the course of the past year that the armed forces have been able to provide effective alternative fire cover to a high standard. In normal circumstances, there is no such alternative to the police service.

In addition, the House will remember that before this last year there had been more than 25 years without a national strike in the fire service. There had been local disagreements and local industrial action, but nothing that led to proposals of this nature being introduced by any party on either side of the House. We should not make the mistake of confusing the current situation for the norm. We must certainly not allow the dispute to continue and we need a strategy for the future that will minimise the chances of it happening again. I have already described how the Bill and our forthcoming White Paper will do that in their different but complementary ways. Achieving a fire service for the future will depend on committed and motivated staff at all levels. Reducing the rights of staff is, in my view, neither helpful nor likely to achieve a productive outcome.

In all events, I do not think that the kind of powers that would be conferred by amendment No. 1 would be in any way appropriate. The hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge spent a great deal of time during our consideration of the Local Government Bill criticising the Government for giving too many powers to the Secretary of State. Yet he is proposing not only that the Secretary of State should have power to legislate about fundamental things such as trade union membership, but that he should also be able to change the disciplinary code to make strike action an offence solely by order rather than by primary legislation on which the House decides. I cannot understand the logic behind those proposals.

Amendment No. 14, tabled by my hon. Friend John McDonnell, is designed to restrict the Secretary of State's power so that he could not fix or modify the hours of duty and leave of fire brigade members. The intended effect of that would be twofold. First, the Secretary of State would not be able to address firefighters' conditions of service as a whole. He would not, for example, be able to make changes to hours of duty or leave arrangements that might be welcomed by firefighters. There would inevitably be less scope to produce a package that could address the range of issues to which firefighters attach importance.

Secondly, the amendment might make it more difficult to make progress with the modernisation of the service. A key question is how to match hours of work to the peaks of demand and risk. That will almost certainly require some change from the current patterns of work, which have remained pretty much the same for 25 years or more. That does not mean, as some have suggested, wholesale changes to shift patterns and working conditions. Our best judgment is that new flexible arrangements could be introduced under which a majority of firefighters would remain on their current shift patterns if they wanted to.

There are likely to be other options, however, including different shift patterns and working hours, some of which will involve more family-friendly hours, which could be more attractive to some serving firefighters and potential new recruits. The precise changes needed will have to be considered locally and will emerge from the risk management plans on which fire authorities are working and on which they will consult. If we are driven to a position in which we have no option but to use the powers, we will need to be able to make the right changes that work with fire authorities' agreed plans.

I hope that my hon. Friend recognises that there could be some downsides to his proposal and I have explained why I do not support the purpose of the amendment. Having said that, perhaps I should also tell him that I do not believe that it would have the effect that he wants to produce.

The definition in clause 2(2) is not exhaustive: the phrase "conditions of service" includes the matters listed, but is not limited to them. If the matters listed were amended to remove any mention of hours of duty or leave, the phrase "conditions of service" would still have its natural meaning, and the so-called grey book, which contains firefighters' terms of service, makes it clear that that meaning includes hours of duty and leave. My hon. Friend's amendment would therefore not have the effect that he desires, and I ask him not to press it.

I hope that the hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge will agree to withdraw his, frankly, unworthy and undesirable amendment.