Orders of the Day — Teaching and Higher Education Bill [Lords]

Part of the debate – in the House of Commons at 7:53 pm on 16 March 1998.

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Photo of Brian Iddon Brian Iddon Labour, Bolton South East 7:53, 16 March 1998

If the hon. Gentleman listens to the rest of my speech, he will find that I answer his question.

To continue, science departments have closed and, sadly, continue to close throughout the university system as we speak. This is science engineering technology week—SET 98—and yet, in a country that believes in high technology, we are forcing vital science and engineering departments to close because of a lack of funding.

Of course, there is a shortage of students and, as hon. Members have said, it is important to put money into nursery, primary and secondary education because, if we do not build the base for students in the early years, we shall not encourage them to go to university later in life. I accuse the previous Conservative Government of expanding the higher education system far too quickly. They refused to provide adequate resources because of a lack of political will. They have left the university system, including the former polytechnics, in the mess with which the Bill is trying deal.

Our universities are so underfunded that any money raised through tuition fees—this is my answer to the hon. Member for Bath (Mr. Foster)—needs, at least in the short if not the long term, to go directly back into the university system. I have tried to point out why that is so necessary. If the money is directed at other parts of education, there will be great anger throughout the university system.

I understand the Secretary of State's problems, and I understand that he wants also to provide further education with adequate resources. A further education college in my town is crying out for resources. However, it would be fatal to redirect massive resources from the higher education sector to pull the further education sector into the new millennium.

I came from a small village where we were expected to work on the land. My father was a market gardener, and when my mother suggested that perhaps I should go to university, he was horrified. I was the eldest son and in such families it was the culture for us to follow our fathers. It is not merely poverty that controls whether people go to university, but culture. In some of the council estates that I represent and some of the poorer private-sector areas of my town, a similar culture exists. Somehow, Parliament and society at large must find a way to break through that culture. It is not merely a matter of improving the education system across the board, but of getting through to parents and, in particular, the children who live in such areas, that real benefits will result from proceeding through the education system and achieving degree-level status.

That is one of my worries about the Bill. I accept the Secretary of State's honesty and integrity in believing that we shall persuade more people from such cultural backgrounds to go into higher and further education. The Secretary of State is right, but I must express my concern.

Another concern relates to the situation of two young people from such a background leaving university to live together as partners, married or otherwise. They could run up a debt of around £12,000 each. Multiplied by two, that is a massive £24,000 debt for a young couple starting out in life. I accept all that the Secretary of State said about repayment and minimum and maximum trigger points, but I am concerned about such young people who are beginning to buy cars and look for houses to purchase and who have lots of other expensive things to buy. I have asked him about this before, and he has addressed it, but, for the record, I hope that he will do so again this evening. What will happen when such a couple with a potential debt of £24,000 ask a building society for a loan? He has told me before that he has had discussions with the building societies. I think that I know something about what he has discussed with them. I hope that he will set the record straight and tell us what position such people will be in.