Prohibition of Small-Calibre Pistols

Orders of the Day — Firearms (Amendment) Bill – in the House of Commons at 4:31 pm on 18th June 1997.

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Question proposed [16 June], That the clause stand part of the Bill.

Question again proposed.

Photo of Andrew Robathan Andrew Robathan Conservative, Blaby

I shall be brief, Mr. Lord. As I was saying before I was so politely interrupted on Monday, the Bill is profoundly bad legislation. It is being introduced for all the wrong reasons. It is petty minded, it is mean and it will not do what it is intended to do, which is to protect the public.

Clause 1 relates in particular to the calibre of pistol that the Bill will exclude from use. The idea propounded by the Home Secretary is that a .22 pistol, especially the single-shot pistol that we are discussing today, is as dangerous as any other weapon. Anyone with any knowledge of firearms knows that a .22 pistol—

Photo of Alun Michael Alun Michael Minister of State, Home Office

I appreciate that the hon. Gentleman did not bother to come back to the Chamber for the remainder of the debate on Monday, but he should remember that we are dealing with clause stand part, which does not deal only with single-shot pistols.

Photo of Andrew Robathan Andrew Robathan Conservative, Blaby

The hon. Gentleman is kind to remind me of that, but I knew it already. However, the amendment and the clause deal with .22 pistols, including single-shot pistols.

Photo of Andrew Robathan Andrew Robathan Conservative, Blaby

We are dealing with .22 pistols, including single-shot pistols. The hon. Gentleman, through lack of knowledge and through ignorance, may find it difficult to understand what we are talking about, which is .22 pistols used for target shooting. If they are banned, that will destroy target shooting.

Photo of Alun Michael Alun Michael Minister of State, Home Office

The hon. Gentleman says that I do not understand. I remind him that we dealt with the amendment relating to single-shot pistols on Monday. The whole clause is before us now. It deals with the generality of .22 pistols and extends the bounds to all .22 pistols. That is the point of what we are debating now.

Photo of Andrew Robathan Andrew Robathan Conservative, Blaby

The Minister is very kind to inform me of that, but as I have explained to him—perhaps he is being a little obtuse today—that includes single-shot pistols. The idea that a .22 pistol is equally as lethal as other pistols is not correct. When the Minister winds up, I hope that he will confirm whether Mr. Rabin was killed with a .22 pistol. I believe that he was, but the point is that a bullet from a .22 pistol does not carry as far as one from other weapons and you have to get close to someone to kill them. The idea that Mr. Hamilton could have gone round and shot everybody in the head close at hand is absurd, because he would not have had the chance.

My point is whether clause 1 will protect the public. Which weapons are more dangerous than .22 pistols? One could think of pitchforks in "Dad's Army" and many other things. The .22 pistols are not likely to be the chosen weapon of lethality by mental cases such as Mr. Hamilton.

I would like the Minister to answer one further question, which was put by the hon. Member for Stockton, North (Mr. Cook) on Monday. Sadly, he cannot be here today. He asked whether it was the Government's intention to do away with the sport of pistol shooting. We should be clear that that will be the effect of the Bill. It will do away with pistol shooting for populist reasons. It will not protect the public, but it will do away with a sport in which many people—not myself—wish to take part.

Photo of Alun Michael Alun Michael Minister of State, Home Office

The hon. Gentleman asked me to respond specifically to points that are nothing to do with what is before us. His contribution was one of the most fatuous that I have heard in the House of Commons. He has obviously forgotten which issues we are debating. He asked whether it is the Government's intention to do away with pistol shooting. We made it clear in the debate on Monday—as we made it clear in our evidence to Lord Cullen and on Second Reading—that we had originally hoped to allow the continuation of pistol shooting if that could be achieved consistently with protecting the public. We have made that clear from beginning to end. We also made it clear that we did not believe that the public could be protected except by a complete ban on handguns. That is why we are debating the Bill today.

The banning of .22 handguns, including repeat and single-shot pistols, is the essence of the Bill. The hon. Member for Blaby (Mr. Robathan) may understand, if I repeat myself very slowly and clearly, that it was not the Government's intention to do away with the sport of pistol shooting, but we came to the conclusion, having examined all the evidence—including that given to Lord Cullen, and his conclusions—that the way to protect the public was to ban all handguns. We concluded that the public would not be protected by banning only the 80 per cent. that were made illegal by the 1997 Act introduced by the right hon. Member for Penrith and The Border (Mr. Maclean), who is in his place, and his colleagues.

Photo of Mike Hancock Mike Hancock Shadow Spokesperson (Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs)

I am grateful for the Minister's response to the points that were made. It was obvious on Monday that several hon. Members had missed the point of the Bill completely. The amendments that were tabled failed to grasp the real issue. For example, someone asked about the point of safety, which was obvious to most people who were interested in the essence of the debate. If handguns were taken out of circulation and there were no legally held weapons, public safety would undoubtedly be increased. Those weapons would not be available for anyone to use.

The essence of the Second Reading debate was that the resources that police forces would have to use to enforce the previous Government's legislation could—once the Bill has been passed, which I am sure the majority of hon. Members hope will happen—be used to try to rid the nation of illegally held guns. As someone who held a gun licence for many years and enjoyed the sport of shooting, I resent the suggestions that were made by more than one hon. Member on Monday that firearms holders would find some illegal way to maintain their ownership of guns after the Bill became law. I find that offensive, as I am sure do the vast majority of people who hold firearms certificates. It is nonsense to suggest that they will find ways around the legislation and try to own guns illegally.

Clause 1 is the essence of the Bill. The Minister's comments this afternoon satisfied me and, I am sure, the majority of hon. Members and the nation. Public safety will benefit from the Bill. We should welcome it, get on with the vote and give the Bill a swift passage through the House.

Photo of Mr Harry Barnes Mr Harry Barnes Labour, North East Derbyshire

Clause 1 is the heart of the Bill. I am opposed to a measure that will completely ban .22s, and I also disliked the Firearms (Amendment) Act 1997, which confined .22s to gun clubs. I have always argued for the dismantling of .22s and other handguns. I hope that the Minister will respond to the argument today, because it has not been answered effectively, either by the present Government or the previous Government. On Second Reading, the Minister mainly referred to previous answers which he claimed showed that the previous Government's attitude was correct, but they gave only thin answers.

Because I opposed the Bill on Second Reading, I have received letters from people who have contacted me many times before about the human rights issues with which I am normally associated. They are astonished that, for the first time, my response to an issue differs from their attitudes. For the benefit of those people and of the Committee, I wish to explain how someone who has nothing to do with guns and the gun culture comes to believe that dismantling and not a complete ban is the answer.

I wish to explain my position by referring to a letter that I wrote to the Dunblane parents. As part of the Snowdrop campaign, the Dunblane parents visited the House during the Second Reading of the .1997 Act. I met them for 25 minutes and had the harrowing experience of presenting a viewpoint to them that they did not agree with, when all my natural sympathy lay with them and their problems. I do not see myself associated with gun activities, and I am not especially pleased that I have received masses of letters from people in gun clubs thanking me for the stance that I have taken. Gun club members accepted the dismantling argument only when they felt that nothing else was left. I have always believed that dismantling was the right option.

In my letter to the Dunblane parents, I said: I would like to explain to you the evolution of my thought on the need for legislation. You won't agree with my position; but your understanding is more important to me than letters of encouragement from gun clubs—whom I just don't identify with.My views developed through the following stages… My initial and lasting response was and is that of any normal person and has been expressed to you many times by people who can explain their feelings much better than I can. It was one of numbness and the deepest fellow human sympathy for the victims, relatives and friends of those involved in the tragedy. I enclose a local newspaper article in which I imperfectly attempted to express such a reaction. I am sure that all hon. Members share that feeling and wish to respond to the concerns of the Dunblane parents. I continued with my second point:

I then gave support in June to the Dunblane Snowdrop Petition' which, amongst other things said that 'all firearms held for recreational purposes for use in authorised sporting clubs be held securely at such clubs with the firing mechanism removed'. I enclose a press release which I issued in June on the petition. I should explain that I had issued a press release, which was not used in my local area, so that newspapers would report that I was supporting the Snowdrop petition, thereby encouraging others to sign it. The petition dealt with the arguments for dismantling—although later, as circumstances changed, those involved with the petition moved beyond the position expressed in the petition.

In my letter, I went on to state:

Labour MPs were issued with a Briefing note in August"— which I enclosed—

which I made use of in answering constituents. It called for handguns to be used and kept safely at properly run gun-clubs. Although this statement didn't call for the firing mechanism to be removed, I then felt that could be tackled at the Committee stage of the Bill. Therefore, at a time when the Labour party was not proposing a total ban, I sent out a letter quite similar to those that hon. Members once attributed to the Minister without Portfolio.

I went on to write: I believe that the ground moved towards a total or partial ban following the Conservative majority on the Home Affairs Committee publishing their ill-judged report attempting to defend the home ownership of hand-guns. From my stance…above I obviously disagreed with them, but didn't move into campaigning for a total ban, even when it became my party's position. I held to the argument on dismantling.

I continued: When the Cullen report was issued, it reinforced my initial feelings. First, the numbness over the experiences you have all lived through and relived. Secondly, the need to dismantle the firing mechanism of hand guns and come up with an arrangement where no person using hand guns for sporting purposes would have access to a gun they could fire outside of their sports club.I honestly feel that Cullen's dismantling recommendation is the best way to tackle this terrible problem. The House has never had a chance to discuss Cullen's recommendations because, as soon as the report was issued, we were dealing with a White Paper and proposed legislation, in which the previous Government made their proposals. Hon. Members should been allowed a proper and full debate on Cullen so that we could better understand the situation. Many hon. Members argue that the House's procedures should be changed so that Standing Committees, like Select Committees, can discuss and investigate the issues behind draft Bills. Such a process could have occurred with the Cullen report, and perhaps no other issue was more deserving of such scrutiny.

I went on to say: Prohibition (especially total prohibition) on hand guns will, unfortunately, lead to the growth of illegally held and operated guns. I know some hon. Members believe that such an argument somehow denigrates people who own handguns. I am not attempting to do that. or to suggest that there will be massive growth in such illegal activity —but there will always be reaction to a prohibitive measure. All previous examples of prohibition show that subsequent reaction is likely. I am not associated with gun clubs, but I am—to use prohibition in America as an analogy—rather like a teetotaller who argues against prohibition because of its inherent dangers.

I concluded my letter by stating: I believe that I'm pursuing a position that is in line with the initial Snowdrop petition. I hope you feel that there is a sense in which I am still with you and always have been. In this debate, it is important to hear a view that is not associated with gun clubs or their activity, but which is concerned with the growth of that culture and with containing it and moving it in a different direction. The Bill is not the appropriate measure to achieve those goals. It is a counter-productive and rushed bit of legislation which minors the counter-productive and rushed Act passed in the previous Parliament.

Photo of David Maclean David Maclean Conservative, Penrith and The Border

We have heard nothing from the Minister, either today or in Monday's debate, to justify the draconian provisions of clause 1. He has advanced no argument suggesting that some great new advantage in public safety will be achieved if the Bill is passed, and he cannot bring himself to admit the truth, which is that the 1997 Act has already secured public safety. The 1997 Act bans all higher-calibre handguns and insists that .22 calibre weapons be contained only in gun clubs secured to a standard with which the police are satisfied. It also provides that such weapons can be fired only in those specially licensed gun clubs and removed from them only in highly specific circumstances.

Ministers have rejected an amendment tabled by the Opposition, in which we asked whether, with current restrictions, they will exempt single-shot handguns. Ministers said no, and they have adopted an attitude which suggests that they will reject the other amendments that we shall move later in the debate. Their attitude means that pistol shooting as a legitimate, honest sport will be completely eradicated in the United Kingdom.

The Minister failed to say whether, in even the most highly restrictive circumstances, he sees any future for the sport of pistol shooting in the United Kingdom. Obviously, he see no such future because the Government are unwilling to listen. Therefore, because they will not listen, and because they have rejected our amendment, we have decided to vote against clause 1 standing part of the Bill. I reaffirm the decision that we took in Monday's debate. The Minister has done nothing to change that decision, and I urge hon. Members to support us in the Lobby.

Photo of Alun Michael Alun Michael Minister of State, Home Office 5:45 pm, 18th June 1997

I am sorry that the shadow Minister has given in to the rottweilers on the Opposition Back Benches. Reasserting his statement does not make it true: we have provided reasons and arguments in response to each of the points that have been raised in the debate.

I respect the views of my hon. Friend the Member for North-East Derbyshire (Mr. Barnes), but he is completely wrong to say that the issue of dismantling has not been examined. I must put him right on that point, because the issue was fully debated during the passage of the 1997 Act when the right hon. Member for Penrith and The Border (Mr. Maclean) dealt with it. During the passage of that legislation, the House rejected dismantling of large-calibre handguns and—as my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary and I made clear on Second Reading and in Monday's debate—there are no grounds for considering dismantling .22 weapons, with which this legislation is solely concerned. Dismantling is not a practical option and does not provide the degree of safety that the Government want to achieve by banning all handguns.

The general opposition of shadow Ministers may be sincere, but my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary and I have already comprehensively dealt with it both on Second Reading and in Monday's debate. The shadow Minister's mention of earlier briefings was irrelevant, because we did not start by arguing for a complete ban on all handguns. We reached our view after a careful and considered examination of all the evidence, which has shown that public safety requires the ban proposed in the Bill. That is why clause 1 should and must stand part of the Bill.

Question put:

The Committee divided: Ayes 352, Noes 167.

Division No. 31][5.47 pm
Abbott, Ms DianeBurgon, Colin
Ainsworth, Robert (Cov'try NE)Burstow, Paul
Allan, Richard (Shef'ld Hallam)Butler, Christine
Allen, Graham (Nottingham N)Byers, Stephen
Anderson, Donald (Swansea E)Campbell, Alan (Tynemouth)
Anderson, Janet (Ros'dale)Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)
Armstrong, Ms HilaryCampbell, Menzies (NE Fife)
Ashdown, Rt Hon PaddyCampbell, Ronnie (Blyth V)
Atherton, Ms CandyCampbell—Savours, Dale
Atkins, Ms CharlotteCanavan, Dennis
Austin, JohnCaplin, Ivor
Barron, KevinCasale, Roger
Battle, JohnCaton, Martin
Beard, NigelCawsey, Ian
Begg, Miss Anne (Aberd'n S)Chapman, Ben (Wirral S)
Bell, Martin (Tatton)Chaytor, David
Bell, Stuart (Middlesbrough)Church, Ms Judith
Benn, Rt Hon TonyClapham, Michael
Benton, JoeClark, Rt Hon Dr David (S Shields)
Bermingham, GeraldClark, Dr Lynda (Edinburgh Pentlands)
Berry, Roger
Best, HaroldClark, Paul (Gillingham)
Betts, CliveClarke, Charles (Norwich S)
Blackman, Mrs LizClarke, Eric (Midlothian)
Blears, Ms HazelClarke, Rt Hon Tom (Coatbridge)
Blizzard, RobertClarke, Tony (Northampton S)
Blunkett, Rt Hon DavidClelland, David
Borrow, DavidClwyd, Mrs Ann
Bradley, Keith (Withington)Coaker, Vernon
Bradley, Peter (The Wrekin)Coffey, Ms Ann
Bradshaw, BenCohen, Harry
Brand, Dr PeterColeman, Iain (Hammersmith & Fulham)
Brown, Rt Hon Gordon (Dunfermline E)
Colman, Anthony (Putney)
Brown, Rt Hon Nick (Newcastle E & Wallsend)Connarty, Michael
Cooper, Ms Yvette
Brown, Russell (Dumfries)Corbett, Robin
Browne, Desmond (Kilmamock)Corbyn, Jeremy
Buck, Ms KarenCorston, Ms Jean
Cousins, JimHodge, Ms Margaret
Crausby, DavidHome Robertson, John
cryer, Mrs Ann (Keighley)Hoon, Geoffrey
Cryer, John (Hornchurch)Hope, Philip
Cummings, JohnHopkins, Kelvin
Cunliffe, LawrenceHowarth, Alan (Newport E)
Cunningham, Jim (Cov'try S)Howarth, George (Knowsley N)
Curtis-Thomas, Ms ClareHowells, Dr Kim
Dafis, CynogHoyle, Lindsay
Dalyell, TamHughes, Ms Beverley (Stretford & Urmston)
Darling, Rt Hon Alistair
Darvill, KeithHughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)
Davey, Edward (Kingston)Humble, Mrs Joan
Davey, Valerie (Bristol W)Hurst, Alan
Davies, Geraint (Croydon C)Iddon, Brian
Davies, Rt Hon Ron (Caerphilly)Illsley, Eric
Davis, Terry (B'ham Hodge H)Jackson, Ms Glenda (Hampst'd)
Dean, Ms JanetJackson, Mrs Helen (Hillsborough)
Denham, JohnJamieson, David
Dewar, Rt Hon DonaldJenkins, Brian (Tamworth)
Dismore, AndrewJohnson, Ms Melanie (Welwyn Hatfield)
Dobbin, Jim
Dobson, Rt Hon FrankJones, Barry (Alyn & Deeside)
Donohoe, Brian HJones, Helen (Warrington N)
Doran, FrankJones, leuan Wyn (Ynys Môn)
Dunwoody, Mrs GwynethJones, Ms Jenny (Wolverh'ton SW)
Eagle, Angela (Wallasey)
Eagle, Ms Maria (L'pool Garston)Jones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C)
Edwards, HuwJones, Dr Lynne (Selly Oak)
Efford, CliveJones, Nigel (Cheltenham)
Ellman, Ms LouiseJowell, Ms Tessa
Etherington, BillKaufman, Rt Hon Gerald
Fearn, RonnieKeeble, Ms Sally
Fitzpatrick, JimKeen, Mrs Ann (Brentford)
Fitzsimons, Ms LornaKemp, Fraser
Flint, Ms CarolineKennedy, Charles (Ross Skye & Inverness W
Flynn, Paul
Follett, Ms BarbaraKennedy, Jane (Wavertree)
Foster, Rt Hon DerekKhabra, Piara S
Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings)Kidney, David
Foster, Michael John (WorcesterKilfoyle, Peter
Fyfe, MariaKing, Andy (Rugby)
Galbraith, SamKing, Miss Oona (Bethnal Green)
Galloway, GeorgeKingham, Tessa
Gapes, MikeKirkwood, Archy
Gardiner, BarryKumar, Dr Ashok
George, Bruce (Walsall S)Ladyman, Dr Stephen
Gerrard, NeilLawrence, Ms Jackie
Gibson, Dr IanLepper, David
Gilroy, Mrs LindaLeslie, Christopher
Godman, Dr Norman ALevitt, Tom
Godsiff, RogerLewis, Ivan (Bury S)
Goggins, PaulLewis, Terry (Worsley)
Golding Mrs LlinLiddell, Mrs Helen
Gordon, Mrs EileenLinton, Martin
Gorrie, DonaldLivingstone, Ken
Graham, ThomasLivsey, Richard
Grant, BernieLloyd, Tony (Manchester C)
Griffiths, Ms Jane (Reading E)Llwyd, Elfyn
Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)Lock, David
Grocott, BruceLove, Andy
Grogan, JohnMcAllion, John
Gunnell, JohnMcAvoy, Thomas
Hall, Mike (Weaver Vale)McCabe, Stephen
Hall, Patrick (Bedford)McCafferty, Ms Chris
Hamilton, Fabian (Leeds NE)McCartney, Ian (Makerfield)
Hancock, MikeMcDonagh, Ms Siobhain
Hanson, DavidMacdonald, Calum
Healey, JohnMcFall, John
Henderson, Ivan (Harwich)McGuire, Mrs Anne
Hepburn, StephenMcIsaac, Ms Shona
Heppell, JohnMcKenna, Ms Rosemary
Hesford, StephenMackinlay, Andrew
Hewitt, Ms PatriciaMcMaster, Gordon
Hill, KeithMcNamara, Kevin
Hinchliffe, DavidMcNutty, Tony
MacShane, DenisShaw, Jonathan
McWalter, TonySheerman, Barry
McWilliam, JohnSheldon, Rt Hon Robert
Mahon, Mrs AliceShipley, Ms Debra
Mallaber, Ms JudySimpson, Alan (Nottingham S)
Marsden, Gordon (Blackpool S)Singh, Marsha
Marsden, Paul (Shrewsbury)Skinner, Dennis
Marshall, David (Shettleston)Smith, Ms Angela (Basildon)
Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)Smith, Rt Hon Chris (Islington S)
Marshall—Andrews, RobertSmith, Miss Geraldine (Morecambe & Lunesdale)
Martlew, Eric
Maxton, JohnSmith, Ms Jacqui (Redditch)
Meale, AlanSmith, John (Glamorgan)
Merron, Ms GillianSmith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent)
Michael, AlunSoley, Clive
Milburn, AlanSouthworth, Ms Helen
Miller, AndrewSpellar, John
Mitchell, AustinSquire, Ms Rachel
Moran, Ms MargaretStarkey, Dr Phyllis
Morgan, Ms Julie (Cardiff N)Stewart, David (Inverness E)
Morgan, Rhodri (Cardiff W)Stewart Ian (Eccles)
Morris, Ms Estelle (.B'ham Yardley)Stinchcombe, Paul
Mountford, Ms KaliStoate, Dr Howard
Mudie, GeorgeStott, Roger
Mullin, ChrisStraw, Rt Hon Jack
Murphy, Jim (Eastwood.)Stuart, Mrs Gisela (Edgbaston)
Naysmith, Dr DougStunell, Andrew
Norris, DanSutcliffe, Gerry
O'Brien, Mike (N Warks)Taylor, Rt Hon Mrs Ann(Dewsbury)
O'Brien, William (Normanton)
O'Hara, EdwardTaylor, Ms Dari (Stockton S)
Olner, BillThomas, Gareth (Clwyd W)
O'Neill, MartinThomas, Gareth R (Harrow)
Organ, Mrs DianaTipping, Paddy
Osborne, Mrs SandraTodd, Mark
Perham, Ms LindaTonge, Dr Jenny
Pickthall, ColinTouhig, Don
Pike, Peter LTrickett, Jon
Plaskitt,JamesTruswell, Paul
Pollard, KerryTurner, Dennis (Wolverh'ton SE)
Pond, ChrisTurner, Desmond (Kemptown)
Pound, StephenTurner, Dr George (NW Norfolk)
Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lewisham E)Twigg, Derek (Halton)
Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)Twigg, Stephen (Enfield)
Primarolo, DawnVis, Dr Rudi
Prosser, GwynWard, Ms Claire
Purchase, KenWatts, David
Quin, Ms JoyceWebb, Steven
Quinn, LawrieWhite, Brian
Radice, GilesWhitehead, Alan
Rammell, BillWicks, Malcolm
Rapson, SydWigley, Dafydd
Reed, Andrew (Loughborough)Williams, Rt Hon Alan (Swansea W)
Reid, Dr John (Hamilton N)
Rendel, DavidWilliams, Dr Alan W (E Carmarthen)
Robertson, Rt Hon George (Hamilton S)
Williams, Mrs Betty (Conwy)
Rogers, AllanWinnick, David
Rooney, TerryWinterton, Ms Rosie (Doncaster C)
Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)Wise, Audrey
Roy, FrankWood, Mike
Ruane, ChrisWoolas, Phil
Ruddock, Ms JoanWray, James
Russell, Ms Christine (Chester)Wright, Dr Tony (Cannock)
Ryan, Ms JoanWright, Tony (Gt Yarmouth)
Salmond, AlexWyatt, Derek
Savidge, Malcolm
Sawford, PhilTellers for the Ayes:
Sedgemore, BrianMr. Greg Pope and
Mr. Jim Dowd.
Ainsworth, Peter (E Surrey)Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)
Amess,DavidBaker, Norman
Ancram, Rt Hon MichaelBaldry, Tony
Arbuthnot, JamesBarnes, Harry
Atkinson, David (Bour'mth E)Beith, Rt Hon A J
Berrcow, JohnHunter, Andrew
Beresford, Sir PaulJack, Rt Hon Michael
Blunt, CrispinJackson, Robert (Wantage)
Boswell, TimJenkin, Bernard (N Essex)
Bottomley,Peter (Worthing W)Johnson Smith,
Bottomley, Rt Hon Mrs VirginiaRt Hon Sir Geoffrey
Brady, GrahamKeetch, Paul
Brake, ThomasKey, Robert
Brazier, JulianKing, Rt Hon tom (Bridgwater)
Brooke, Rt Hon peterLaing, Mrs Eleanor
Browning, Mrs AngelaLansley, Andrew
Bruce, Ian (S Dorset)Letwin, Oliver
Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon)Lewis, Dr Julian (New Forest E)
Burnett, JohnLidington, David
Burns, SimonLilley, Rt Hon Peter
Butterfill, JohnLoughton, Tim
Cable, Dr VincentLuff, Peter
Cann, JamieLyell, Rt Hon Sir Nicholas
Cash,William McIntosh, Miss Anne
Chapman Sir Sydney (Chipping Barnet)Mackay, Andrew
Chope, ChristopherMaclean, Rt Hon David
Clappison, JamesMaclennan, Robert
Clark, Rt Hon Alan (Kensigton)Madel, Sir David
Clark, Dr Michael (Rayleigh>Maginnis, Ken
Clarke,Rt Hon Kenneth (Rushcliffe)Malins, Humfrey
Clifton-Brown, GeoffreyMates, Michael
Collins, TimMaude,Rt Hon Francis
Clovin, MichaelMawhinney, Rt Hon Dr Brian
Cormack, Sir PatrickMay, Mrs Theresa
Cotter,BrianMerchant, Piers
Cran,JamesMoss, Malcolm
Curry, Rt Hon DavidNicholls, Patrick
Davis, Rt Hon David (Haltemprice)Norman, Archie
Davis, Quentin (Grantham & Stamford)Opik, Lembit
Ottaway, Richard
Day, StephenPaice, Eric
Dorrell, Rt Hon StephenPaterson, Owen
Duncan, AlanPickles, Eric
Duncan Smith, IainPrior, David
Emery,Rt Hon Sir PeterRedwood Rt Hon John
Evans, NigelRobathan, Andrew
Faber, DavidRobertson, Laurence (Tewk'b'ry)
Fabricant, MichaelRoe, Mrs Marion (Broxbourne)
Fallon, MichaelRuffley, David
Flight, HowardRussell, Bob (Colchester)
Forsythe, CliffordSanders, Adrian
Forth, EricSayeed, Jonathan
Foster, Don (Bath)Shephard, Rt Hon Mrs Gillian
Fowler,Rt Hon Sir NormanShephard, Richard (Aldridge)
Fowler,ChristopherSimpson, Keith (Mid-Norfolk)
Gale, RogerSmith,Sir Robert (W Ab'd'ns)
Garnier,EdwardSmyth, Rev Martin (Belfast S)
Gibb, NickSoames,Nicholas
Gillan,Mrs CherylSpelman, Mrs Caroline
Goodlad, Rt Hon AlastairSpicer, Sir Michael
Gorman, Mrs TeresaStanley, Rt Hon Sir John
Gray, JamesSteen, Anthony
Green, DamianSwayne, Desmond
Greenway, JohnSyms, Robert
Grieve, DominicTapsell,Sir Peter
Gummer, Rt Hon JohnTaylor, Ian (Esher & Walton)
Hamilton, Rt Hon Sir ArchieTaylor, John M (Solihull)
Hammond, PhilipTaylor, Matthew (Truro & St Austell)
Harris, Dr Evan
Harvey, NickTaylor, Sir Teddy
Hawkins, NickThompson, William
Hayes,JohnTownend, John
Heald,OliverTredinnick, David
Heath, David (Somerton)Trend, Michael
Heathcoat—Amory, Rt Hon DavidTyler, Paul
Heseltine, Rt Hon MichaelTyrie, Andrew
Horam, JohnViggers, Peter
Howard, Rt Hon MichaelWardle, Charles
Hughes, Simon (Southwark N)Waterson, Nigel
Whitney, Sir RaymondWoodward, Shaun
Whittingdale, JohnYeo, Tim
Widdecombe, Rt Hon Miss AnnYoung, Rt Hon Sir George
Willetts, David
Willis, PhilTellers For the Noes:
Winterton, Mrs Ann (Congleton)Mr. Patrick McLoughlin
Winterton, Nicholas (Macclesfield)and
Mr. Bowen Wells.

Question accordingly agreed to

Clause 1 ordered to stand part of the Bill.