Referendums (Scotland and Wales) Bill (Allocation of Time)

Part of the debate – in the House of Commons at 5:02 pm on 3 June 1997.

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Photo of Edward Garnier Edward Garnier Conservative, Harborough 5:02, 3 June 1997

I do not want to confuse the right hon. Gentleman; he is not a man of great thought. Nor do I want to delay the debate.

As the Secretary of State for Scotland admitted, on occasion, Opposition Back Benchers table amendments which they know are unlikely to draw favour from the Chairman of Ways and Means. The important point, however, is that, among the amendments tabled, plenty of subjects that deserve sensible debate are raised. As a consequence of the timetable motion, a raft of those important issues will not be debated. They include the publication and form of the Government's proposals, procedures for the conduct of the referendums, the name and tax-raising powers of any Welsh Assembly, the financing and organisation of the referendum campaign and, perhaps most important, the required majorities—the threshold question. None of those is to be debated. Whether the Government like it or not, those issues are entitled to be debated, yet by virtue of the timetable motion, they are unable to be debated, let alone voted on.

The Secretary of State for Scotland, in partly pooh-poohing the subject of precedent—which was interesting for a lawyer—attempted to draw comfort from the proceedings on the Wales Bill and the Scotland Bill in 1977. He said that, under a Labour Government—some precedent that—guillotine motions were moved before the Bills went into Committee. What he failed to say was that the timetable motions permitted, under the Scotland Bill, 17 further days of debate, and, under the Wales Bill, 11 further days of debate—not the two very limited days with which we are presented today.

As an Opposition Member of a party that has been badly defeated, I must accept that the arithmetic of the House means that the timetable motion and the Referendums (Scotland and Wales) Bill will go ramming through and that we will have what I gather is now called an advisory referendum in due course, whatever that may be. That is a fact of life with which I must come to terms. Nonetheless, the Government are seeking to stifle arguments that ought to be deployed and arguments that my constituents want to be deployed.

The attitude to opposition and argument is informed by comments made by those who now sit on the Treasury Bench. It is instructive to read an article that appeared in The Western Mail on 23 April—during the election campaign. The new Secretary of State for Wales was asked about the devolution Bill. After making some rude remarks about the then Lord Chancellor, my right hon. and noble Friend Lord MacKay, pooh-poohing his ability and right to hold views on matters of political interest, the right hon. Gentleman said: The Labour party will have a very clear mandate, and it's offensive to any democrat to countenance the unelected House of Lords interfering in the democratic process. It just so happens that, under our constitution, the House of Lords is very much part of our democratic process and constitutional arrangements. How one gets there is another matter and, perhaps, for debate another day. Huge chunks of debates that we may or may not be having over the next few days will lead to the Bill going to another place without many of the issues being considered.

The Secretary of State for Wales went on to say in The Western Mail article: The process by which the devolution legislation that will be passed through the House of Commons will be a matter for the House of Commons …The next House of Commons will decide its own procedure. The Labour Party has included in its manifesto very precise details of our intention of a referendum. If we have a Labour Party elected on its manifesto, it will have a very clear and precise mandate and, in compliance with the Salisbury convention, the next Labour government will brook no interference from people who speak for no one but themselves and their own vested interests. The House should notice the language. It is the language of the Lord Protector, the control freak. [Interruption.] Notice how Labour Members smirk and snigger when they are brought to understand. Not everybody agrees with them. Of course the Government have a majority. Let them smile and smirk at it. On behalf of our constituents, we as Opposition Back Benchers are entitled to expect to be listened to with some respect in the House.

Ministers may disagree with us and think that we are out of date and wrong and have nothing to say. They may sit there smirking, as the Secretary of State for Wales is doing; last night, all around him, sat his little friends, the Stepford wives, who have been told not to say anything for fear that they might offend him or the Chief Whip or the Minister without Portfolio—let alone the Excalibur information system that we now have to contend with. Ministers sit there smirking, saying, "We are the masters now." Has not the language become totally Orwellian? Servants now equals masters.

Who else can we turn to for instruction about the way in which the Government now operate? The Secretary of State for Scotland, as Opposition Chief Whip, was on the BBC programme, "Analysis", on 24 April