Points of Order

– in the House of Commons at 3:31 pm on 11 March 1997.

Alert me about debates like this

Photo of Mr Tony Banks Mr Tony Banks , Newham North West 3:31, 11 March 1997

On a point of order, Madam Speaker. During Defence questions, the hon. Member for Surbiton (Mr. Tracey) made a statement that was unfortunately untrue. He suggested—in fact, he did not suggest; he stated—that the silver that I had removed from county hall for safe keeping, to prevent it from being stolen—which, if I may say so, was more than Defence Ministers were able to do for their paintings—had not been returned.

The silver was, of course, handed over to the London residuary body, and was all accounted for. We will get it back when the new Greater London authority is set up. I ask you, Madam Speaker, to invite the hon. Member for Surbiton to correct the record, withdraw his statement and apologise.

Photo of Mr Richard Tracey Mr Richard Tracey , Surbiton

Further to that point of order, Madam Speaker. You will have noted that I made no mention of silver; I said "artefacts". I certainly did not say that the hon. Member for Newham, North-West (Mr. Banks) had taken them. I said that they had disappeared from county hall, and, as far as I am aware, they have still not been returned.

Photo of Miss Betty Boothroyd Miss Betty Boothroyd Speaker of the House of Commons

Those are not points of order. The hon. Member for Newham, North-West (Mr. Banks) has certainly made his case, and the matter must rest there.

Photo of Mr Brian Wilson Mr Brian Wilson , Cunninghame North

On a point of order, Madam Speaker. I understand that the hon. Member for Ryedale (Mr. Greenway), who asked the Prime Minister a question about the insurance industry, is a paid consultant to the Institute of Insurance Brokers, and a director of an insurance company. Should not that interest have been declared?

Photo of Miss Betty Boothroyd Miss Betty Boothroyd Speaker of the House of Commons

Not during parliamentary questions. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why not?"] Order. The House determined some time ago that it was not always possible for an hon. Member putting a parliamentary question to declare his interest. Of course, we expect it at the very beginning when any hon. Member makes a speech.

Several hon. Members:

rose—

Photo of Miss Betty Boothroyd Miss Betty Boothroyd Speaker of the House of Commons

Order. I have not finished yet. Hon. Members must sit down. I think that the hon. Member for Cunninghame, North (Mr. Wilson) has made his point, and that the House fully understands it.

Photo of Mr Ian Bruce Mr Ian Bruce , South Dorset

Before the hon. Member for Cunninghame, North (Mr. Wilson) leaves with his electronic device, could you confirm, Madam Speaker, that there is a ban, enforced by yourself, on electronic devices? When an hon. Gentleman has a message from the hon. Member for Hartlepool (Mr. Mandelson) on his electronic device, which he reads at the Dispatch Box, I suspect that that is a new departure for the House.

Photo of Miss Betty Boothroyd Miss Betty Boothroyd Speaker of the House of Commons

I would not know who is on the electronic device, but I have requested that electronic devices—which make noises, of course—are not used in the Chamber, and I want to see that carried out.

Photo of Mr Bill Walker Mr Bill Walker , North Tayside

Are you, Madam Speaker, like me disturbed at the question of interest that was raised by the hon. Member for Cunninghame, North (Mr. Wilson), who himself failed to declare an interest yesterday, a point that I drew attention to in my speech? I find it astonishing that he should come to the Dispatch Box on the following day to make a point about interest, when he himself failed to declare an interest in a speech.

Photo of Miss Betty Boothroyd Miss Betty Boothroyd Speaker of the House of Commons

I was not aware of that, but I repeat that all Members who have an interest must declare that interest as soon as they rise to begin a speech.

Photo of Mr David Shaw Mr David Shaw , Dover

My concern is that the hon. Member for Cunninghame, North (Mr. Wilson), who rose to the Dispatch Box just now, did not declare £100,000-worth of grants to his company from the Highlands and Islands development board. My hon. Friend the Member for North Tayside (Mr. Walker) made that point yesterday. The hon. Member for Cunninghame, North was in full knowledge of that point, and could have said at the Dispatch Box that he himself was guilty of a non-declaration in a speech yesterday.

Photo of Miss Betty Boothroyd Miss Betty Boothroyd Speaker of the House of Commons

I have replied to that point of order, which was put to me by the hon. Member for North Tayside (Mr. Walker).

Photo of Mr Seamus Mallon Mr Seamus Mallon , Newry and Armagh

On a point of order, Madam Speaker. Could I have your guidance? I tabled a question to the Secretary of State for the Home Department asking what representations had been received from the German Government in relation to bail for Roisin McAliskey, through what channels, and when they were received. Those must be matters of record in that Department; they have been going on for the past four months. The reply is: I will reply as soon as possible. Will you give a ruling that, where information is readily available in a Department, it should be available to hon. Members in answer to parliamentary questions?

Photo of Miss Betty Boothroyd Miss Betty Boothroyd Speaker of the House of Commons

I have no comment to make on that. The hon. Gentleman has had his response from the Minister, who says that he will reply as soon as possible.

Photo of John Greenway John Greenway , Ryedale

I understand that, a few moments ago, when I had left the Chamber, the hon. Member for Cunninghame, North (Mr. Wilson) alleged that I had failed to declare an interest in the question that I raised with the Prime Minister. All my interests with the insurance industry are declared in the Register of Members' Interests, and have been for many years, but I have no interest in the Chartered Insurance Institute. It is the main education insurance body in the world, is celebrating its 100th anniversary this week, and is not a commercial organisation.

The hon. Gentleman, who did not give me notice that he was going to raise that point, has demonstrated the extent to which the Labour party has a deep distrust of the insurance industry.

Photo of Miss Betty Boothroyd Miss Betty Boothroyd Speaker of the House of Commons

I dealt with the matter at the time, as the hon. Gentleman will see when he reads Hansard.

Photo of Hilary Armstrong Hilary Armstrong , North West Durham

I wonder whether you can help me, Madam Speaker

The hon. Member for Dover (Mr. Shaw) declares in the Register of Members' Interests that he has a remunerated directorship in the AdScene Group plc, a newspaper company. Should he not have further declared that he is using that group's headquarters to telephone-canvass for the General Election?

Photo of Nicholas Winterton Nicholas Winterton , Macclesfield

Would you, Madam Speaker, clarify your reply to a point of order that was raised a few moments ago? Is it appropriate, correct and permissible to use an electronic device in this House and use it while raising a point of order? You said that you deplored the use of electronic devices that make a noise; you did not specify whether you deplored the use of electronic devices that do not make a noise.

Photo of Miss Betty Boothroyd Miss Betty Boothroyd Speaker of the House of Commons

I do not think that such an incident has occurred previously. Personally, I do not like the use of such devices in the Chamber. I think that hon. Members should be aware and alert enough to determine for themselves what they are going to say. I should like to consider the point, if I may.

Photo of Mr Robert Hughes Mr Robert Hughes , Harrow West

Further to the points of order raised about the point of order raised by the hon. Member for Cunninghame, North (Mr. Wilson), Madam Speaker. Following what my hon. Friend the Member for Ryedale (Mr. Greenway) said, plainly the point made about him by the hon. Gentleman was factually inaccurate and wrong. Should not the House consider the point that the hon. Gentleman was receiving instructions from somebody via his pager—presumably the Labour party dirty tricks department? Should we not know who was giving him his instructions, and for whom he was acting merely as a messenger boy?

Photo of Miss Betty Boothroyd Miss Betty Boothroyd Speaker of the House of Commons

The House has heard what I have said. I will consider the matter, and will certainly rule on it at the earliest opportunity.

Photo of Mr Tam Dalyell Mr Tam Dalyell , Linlithgow

Pursuant to the issue of pregnant women in prison raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Newry and Armagh (Mr. Mallon), whereas you are of course right in saying that, if the Home Office response was that it had no information, it might be correct, it is nevertheless a widespread understanding of hon. Members that there is information in the Home Office. As a pregnant woman is in prison in such circumstances, should not the House of Commons dig a little deeper to find out the facts—if, as we are told, information in the Home Office is available?

Photo of Miss Betty Boothroyd Miss Betty Boothroyd Speaker of the House of Commons

As I understood it, the hon. Member for Newry and Armagh (Mr. Mallon) said that the Minister had replied that he would respond as soon as possible. That does not mean that the Home Office has no information. The Minister said that he would respond as soon as possible, and I expect him to do so.

Several hon. Members:

rose

Photo of Miss Betty Boothroyd Miss Betty Boothroyd Speaker of the House of Commons

Who is next? This is rather nice. I call Sir Michael Neubert.

Photo of Mr Michael Neubert Mr Michael Neubert , Romford

Further to your statement a moment ago, Madam Speaker. Would you include in your review the possibility that, if messages are to be communicated to Members in the Chamber by means of the device you have in mind, they could equally be communicated by an earphone in the ear—which, in my opinion, should also be outlawed in this assembly?

Photo of Miss Betty Boothroyd Miss Betty Boothroyd Speaker of the House of Commons

This is a very difficult matter, but I will look at it.

Photo of Dennis Skinner Dennis Skinner Member, Labour Party National Executive Committee

I have got an old-fashioned device here: it is a bit of paper. It says on it that the Tory party was bankrupt last year—by 19 million quid—but it now has a surplus of £40 million. The question is whether anybody will stand up and tell us where the Tories have got it from.

Photo of Miss Betty Boothroyd Miss Betty Boothroyd Speaker of the House of Commons

I will stand up and tell the hon. Gentleman that the House has had enough of this nonsense.

Several hon. Members:

rose

Photo of Miss Betty Boothroyd Miss Betty Boothroyd Speaker of the House of Commons

I will take only serious points of order from now on.

Photo of Miss Betty Boothroyd Miss Betty Boothroyd Speaker of the House of Commons

I have already taken a point of order from the hon. Gentleman, and will not take another.

Photo of Mr Phil Gallie Mr Phil Gallie , Ayr

On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Photo of Miss Betty Boothroyd Miss Betty Boothroyd Speaker of the House of Commons

Are you sure that it is a point of order, Mr. Gallie? It is not just something that has just occurred to you?

Several hon. Members:

rose

Several hon. Members:

rose

Photo of Miss Betty Boothroyd Miss Betty Boothroyd Speaker of the House of Commons

Order. Mr. Clifton-Brown has been bobbing up and down. I shall take a point of order from him.

Photo of Geoffrey Clifton-Brown Geoffrey Clifton-Brown , Cirencester and Tewkesbury

As we on the Conservative Benches clearly heard the bleeper being operated by the hon. Member for Cunninghame, North (Mr. Wilson), do we have—

Photo of Mr Kevin McNamara Mr Kevin McNamara , Kingston upon Hull North

On a point of order, Madam Speaker. You will remember that a former Member of this House, who is now a Member of the upper House, had a device that enabled him to take part in debates and understand what was going on. Will you in your ruling take particular care for our colleagues who are blind, deaf or disabled in some other way?

Photo of David Winnick David Winnick , Walsall North

Would not your difficulties be eased somewhat, Madam Speaker, if the General Election were called now, to ease the pre-election atmosphere?

Photo of Miss Betty Boothroyd Miss Betty Boothroyd Speaker of the House of Commons

West Bromwich, West has been awaiting me for a long time. I should like it to be called as soon as possible.

Photo of Miss Betty Boothroyd Miss Betty Boothroyd Speaker of the House of Commons

The hon. Gentleman has already made a point of order. He will resume his seat—one point is enough.

Photo of Denis MacShane Denis MacShane , Rotherham

On a point of order, Madam Speaker. Very simply, I ask for your guidance. You said earlier that the matter of declarable interests on the Register was not relevant to parliamentary questions. However, the sheet for parliamentary questions says "tick". So what is the guidance?

Photo of Miss Betty Boothroyd Miss Betty Boothroyd Speaker of the House of Commons

Of course it does, but I do not expect an hon. Member who is asking a supplementary question to begin with a long preamble declaring his interests. That information is already declared. We would have to extend Question Time to three hours if I were to expect hon. Members to declare their interests before asking a question.

Photo of Mr Ian Bruce Mr Ian Bruce , South Dorset

On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Members:

Sit down.

Photo of Miss Betty Boothroyd Miss Betty Boothroyd Speaker of the House of Commons

Order. Let me hear the hon. Gentleman, as he is very anxious. He has already made one point of order, so this one must be very important.

Photo of Mr Ian Bruce Mr Ian Bruce , South Dorset

I wonder, Madam Speaker, whether you can give some help to a Constituency Member. I am trying, on behalf of Labour and Liberal Democrat councillors, to get to the bottom of germ warfare tests that were conducted in my constituency 30 years ago. I have approached Ministers on the matter, but they have told me that they are unable to obtain the advice given to the then Secretary of State for Defence by his scientists on whether those tests were safe.

In Dorset, we cannot discover exactly what happened and who knew what. My point of order is to ask whether it would be possible for Lord Healey, who was Secretary of State for Defence at the time, to examine those papers and to report to me and to the House on what has happened to my constituents.

Photo of Miss Betty Boothroyd Miss Betty Boothroyd Speaker of the House of Commons

The activities of any Member of the upper House have nothing to do with me. The hon. Gentleman might have thought of the problem—which he has faced for a long time—rather earlier, and initiated a full Adjournment Debate on it, in which he would have received a reply from a Minister.

Photo of Miss Betty Boothroyd Miss Betty Boothroyd Speaker of the House of Commons

Has the hon. Member already made a point of order?

Photo of Mr Phil Gallie Mr Phil Gallie , Ayr

Bearing in mind Column 41 of yesterday's Hansard, the comment on the large sums of money paid to a company with which the hon. Member for Cunninghame, North (Mr. Wilson) is associated, the fact that he has returned to the Chamber, and your earlier comment, Madam Speaker, would it not be in order for him to apologise to the House?

Photo of Mr Brian Wilson Mr Brian Wilson , Cunninghame North

As a small business man, I am very proud of my association with that company. I am also very proud of the fact that, from the day that it was formed, I have both practised and preached openness about every penny that it should receive; if only Conservative Members would practise or preach the same. My association with that company is well known, and it is and always has been registered in the Register of Members' Interests.

What Conservative Members object to so strongly is that a very successful socialist newspaper is operating in that part of Scotland. It has been very influential, and it will continue to be very influential in making the highlands and islands of Scotland a Tory-free zone.

Photo of Miss Betty Boothroyd Miss Betty Boothroyd Speaker of the House of Commons

Order. The hon. Gentleman should have made the declaration yesterday.

Speaker

The Speaker is an MP who has been elected to act as Chairman during debates in the House of Commons. He or she is responsible for ensuring that the rules laid down by the House for the carrying out of its business are observed. It is the Speaker who calls MPs to speak, and maintains order in the House. He or she acts as the House's representative in its relations with outside bodies and the other elements of Parliament such as the Lords and the Monarch. The Speaker is also responsible for protecting the interests of minorities in the House. He or she must ensure that the holders of an opinion, however unpopular, are allowed to put across their view without undue obstruction. It is also the Speaker who reprimands, on behalf of the House, an MP brought to the Bar of the House. In the case of disobedience the Speaker can 'name' an MP which results in their suspension from the House for a period. The Speaker must be impartial in all matters. He or she is elected by MPs in the House of Commons but then ceases to be involved in party politics. All sides in the House rely on the Speaker's disinterest. Even after retirement a former Speaker will not take part in political issues. Taking on the office means losing close contact with old colleagues and keeping apart from all groups and interests, even avoiding using the House of Commons dining rooms or bars. The Speaker continues as a Member of Parliament dealing with constituent's letters and problems. By tradition other candidates from the major parties do not contest the Speaker's seat at a General Election. The Speakership dates back to 1377 when Sir Thomas Hungerford was appointed to the role. The title Speaker comes from the fact that the Speaker was the official spokesman of the House of Commons to the Monarch. In the early years of the office, several Speakers suffered violent deaths when they presented unwelcome news to the King. Further information can be obtained from factsheet M2 on the UK Parliament website.

Prime Minister

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prime_Minister_of_the_United_Kingdom

Dispatch Box

If you've ever seen inside the Commons, you'll notice a large table in the middle - upon this table is a box, known as the dispatch box. When members of the Cabinet or Shadow Cabinet address the house, they speak from the dispatch box. There is a dispatch box for the government and for the opposition. Ministers and Shadow Ministers speak to the house from these boxes.

Secretary of State

Secretary of State was originally the title given to the two officials who conducted the Royal Correspondence under Elizabeth I. Now it is the title held by some of the more important Government Ministers, for example the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs.

Minister

Ministers make up the Government and almost all are members of the House of Lords or the House of Commons. There are three main types of Minister. Departmental Ministers are in charge of Government Departments. The Government is divided into different Departments which have responsibilities for different areas. For example the Treasury is in charge of Government spending. Departmental Ministers in the Cabinet are generally called 'Secretary of State' but some have special titles such as Chancellor of the Exchequer. Ministers of State and Junior Ministers assist the ministers in charge of the department. They normally have responsibility for a particular area within the department and are sometimes given a title that reflects this - for example Minister of Transport.

general election

In a general election, each constituency chooses an MP to represent it by process of election. The party who wins the most seats in parliament is in power, with its leader becoming Prime Minister and its Ministers/Shadow Ministers making up the new Cabinet. If no party has a majority, this is known as a hung Parliament. The next general election will take place on or before 3rd June 2010.

House of Commons

The House of Commons is one of the houses of parliament. Here, elected MPs (elected by the "commons", i.e. the people) debate. In modern times, nearly all power resides in this house. In the commons are 650 MPs, as well as a speaker and three deputy speakers.

Tory

The political party system in the English-speaking world evolved in the 17th century, during the fight over the ascension of James the Second to the Throne. James was a Catholic and a Stuart. Those who argued for Parliamentary supremacy were called Whigs, after a Scottish word whiggamore, meaning "horse-driver," applied to Protestant rebels. It was meant as an insult.

They were opposed by Tories, from the Irish word toraidhe (literally, "pursuer," but commonly applied to highwaymen and cow thieves). It was used — obviously derisively — to refer to those who supported the Crown.

By the mid 1700s, the words Tory and Whig were commonly used to describe two political groupings. Tories supported the Church of England, the Crown, and the country gentry, while Whigs supported the rights of religious dissent and the rising industrial bourgeoisie. In the 19th century, Whigs became Liberals; Tories became Conservatives.

Question Time

Question Time is an opportunity for MPs and Members of the House of Lords to ask Government Ministers questions. These questions are asked in the Chamber itself and are known as Oral Questions. Members may also put down Written Questions. In the House of Commons, Question Time takes place for an hour on Mondays, Tuesdays, Wednesdays and Thursdays after Prayers. The different Government Departments answer questions according to a rota and the questions asked must relate to the responsibilities of the Government Department concerned. In the House of Lords up to four questions may be asked of the Government at the beginning of each day's business. They are known as 'starred questions' because they are marked with a star on the Order Paper. Questions may also be asked at the end of each day's business and these may include a short debate. They are known as 'unstarred questions' and are less frequent. Questions in both Houses must be written down in advance and put on the agenda and both Houses have methods for selecting the questions that will be asked. Further information can be obtained from factsheet P1 at the UK Parliament site.

constituency

In a general election, each Constituency chooses an MP to represent them. MPs have a responsibility to represnt the views of the Constituency in the House of Commons. There are 650 Constituencies, and thus 650 MPs. A citizen of a Constituency is known as a Constituent

Adjournment debate

An adjournment debate is a short half hour debate that is introduced by a backbencher at the end of each day's business in the House of Commons.

Adjournment debates are also held in the side chamber of Westminster Hall.

This technical procedure of debating a motion that the House should adjourn gives backbench members the opportunity to discuss issues of concern to them, and to have a minister respond to the points they raise.

The speaker holds a weekly ballot in order to decide which backbench members will get to choose the subject for each daily debate.

Backbenchers normally use this as an opportunity to debate issues related to their constituency.

An all-day adjournment debate is normally held on the final day before each parliamentary recess begins. On these occasions MPs do not have to give advance notice of the subjects which they intend to raise.

The leader of the House replies at the end of the debate to all of the issues raised.