The Environment Agency

Clause 1 – in the House of Commons at 4:39 pm on 28th June 1995.

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Amendment proposed: No. 40, in page 2, line 8, after first 'Agency' insert 'or, in Welsh, Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd'.—[Sir Paul Beresfardl]

Mr. Deputy Speaker:

With this, it will be convenient to discuss the following amendments: No. 233, in page 2, line 8, leave out from first 'Agency' to end of line 10 and insert 'for England, to exercise in relation to England the functions assigned or transferred to it under or by this Act; and there shall be a body corporate to be known as the Environment Protection Agency for Wales or, in Welsh, Asiantaeth i Warchod yr Amgylchedd yng Nghymru, to exercise in relation to Wales the functions assigned or transferred to it under or by this Act.(2) Any duty, power or function given to or imposed upon 'the Agency' by this Act shall be a duty, power or function of the Environment Agency for England or the Environmental Protection Agency for Wales as the case may be, and the term 'the Agency' shall be construed accordingly.'. No. 250, in page 2, line 8, leave out from 'Agency' to end of line 10 and insert 'for England, to exercise in relation to England the functions assigned or transferred to it under or by this Act; and(b) a body corporate to be known as the Environment Protection Agency for Wales, to exercise in relation to Wales the functions assigned or transferred to it under or by this Act.'. No. 251, in page 2, line 10, at end insert— '(1A) Any duty, power or function given to or imposed upon "the Agency" by this Act shall be a duty, power or function of the Environment Agency for England or the Environment Protection Agency for Wales as the case may be; and the term "the Agency" shall be construed accordingly.'. No. 258, in clause 12, page 14, line 23, leave out 'wholly or mainly of, or of most of,' and insert 'of'.

Photo of Nick Ainger Nick Ainger , Pembroke

We accept amendment No. 40. Unfortunately, on the advice that we have been given, we will have to vote against it, as otherwise our amendment No. 233 would contradict it. Therefore, if the Minister does not accept our amendment, we will divide the House on amendment No. 40.

Amendment No. 233 would create an environment protection agency for Wales. In establishing such an agency, we would again be recognising that Wales is a nation with its own distinct identity, culture, language and political climate. We would also be recognising and endorsing the devolution of responsibilities to Wales that has taken place since the Welsh Office was established in 1965.

In addition, we would be recognising that Wales has a range of environmental protection problems and environmentally sensitive areas in close proximity, which simply are not replicated anywhere in England. Health, education, transport, economic and industrial development, all local government expenditure, agriculture, employment and training, housing and environmental services have all been devolved to Wales over the past 30 years. However, the problem is that the people of Wales do not yet control those devolved services.

Until Monday of this week, they were controlled by the right hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr. Redwood)—who, I understand, is claiming to be the new saviour of the Tory party come the next general election, if he is successful in the ballot next Tuesday. I have some information in which the Prime Minister's campaign team may be interested—

Mr. Deputy Speaker:

Order. I hope that the hon. Gentleman's remarks will refer specifically to the amendments before us.

Photo of Nick Ainger Nick Ainger , Pembroke

I want to describe the democratic deficit in Wales, as shown by the statistics. In May, the new unitary—

Mr. Deputy Speaker:

Order. I am not clear about which amendment mentions democratic deficit; it does not come immediately to mind.

Photo of Nick Ainger Nick Ainger , Pembroke

This illustrates why the Labour party believes that we need to establish an environmental agency in Wales. We need to resolve democratic deficit issues as a result of the transfer of local authority functions away from local councils in Wales to an agency based in England.

Photo of Mr Alex Carlile Mr Alex Carlile , Montgomery

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the people of rural Wales regard themselves as the legitimate custodians of the Welsh countryside and feel a strong resentment when they see the Government enacting a Bill that effectively removes from them the management of their own countryside? That point gathers strength when one considers the effect of the conduct of the former Secretary of State for Wales in relation to the Countryside Council for Wales.

Photo of Nick Ainger Nick Ainger , Pembroke

I endorse the hon. and learned Gentleman's comments, particularly his last comment, given that, on 5 May, the then Secretary of State for Wales sought to cut the budget of the Countryside Council for Wales by some 16 per cent.

In the May elections, 1,273 councillors were elected on boundaries that had been established by the Secretary of State for Wales. Of those councillors, 731 were Labour, 310 were independents, 113 were Plaid Cymru, 78 were Liberal Democrat and only 41—less than 4 per cent.—were Conservative. That illustrates not only the stewardship and success of the right hon. Member for Wokingham and the support of the—

Mr. Deputy Speaker:

Order. I have already appealed to the hon. Gentleman. I know that he wrote his speech before he came to the Chamber, but a persuasive Member of Parliament such as the hon. Gentleman should be flexible enough to adjust his speech as he goes along.

Photo of Nick Ainger Nick Ainger , Pembroke

I shall immediately adjust my speech, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I was about to say that that classically illustrates the democratic deficit that exists in Wales. It is incumbent on the Government to be sensitive to that democratic deficit and continue to devolve powers to Wales.

In response to a similar debate in Committee, the Minister argued that the Government could not accede to the establishment of an environment protection agency for Wales because the problems that would need to be addressed by such an agency were common to England and Wales and the agency would need to develop and apply common solutions. But are there not common problems and solutions with regard to health, which has been devolved to Wales? The same argument applies to education and agriculture, which have also been devolved to Wales. Those are complex issues and the Government must explain why environmental protection in Wales, which is also a complex issue, has not been devolved. Why cannot it be treated in the same way as the education of our children or the delivery of health care? I hope that the Minister will respond to those questions.

If an agency were established in Wales, it would have almost 1,000 staff dealing exclusively with environmental protection issues. Will the Minister explain why an agency of that size would not be as effective as the Welsh Office, which currently has some 2,795 staff? If it were based in Wales, the new agency would have almost half the number of staff of the Welsh Office. The Welsh Office is responsible for health, transport, education and the other matters that I listed. Will the Minister explain why an agency of half its size could not respond to the needs of Wales in the same way as the Welsh Office has over the past 30 years?

The Minister must appreciate that, given that the Bill removes powers from local councils, covering waste management in particular, Wales is losing even more responsibilities from accountable local government. Moreover, it is simply unacceptable to have only one Welsh representative on the central agency board, or what will effectively be a powerless regional advisory committee. That is no substitute for an environment protection agency for Wales.

I urge the Minister to accept our amendment; otherwise, as I said at the beginning of my remarks, we shall divide the House on this issue.

Photo of Mr Cynog Dafis Mr Cynog Dafis , Ceredigion and Pembroke North

I strongly support amendment No. 233. I shall refer to amendments Nos. 250 and 251, which are tabled in my name. While I am at it, I shall also speak to amendment No. 258, which deals with the agency's regional structure.

We are all aware that this issue was debated on Second Reading and extensively in Committee. The case for an environmental protection agency for Wales was ably presented in the other place by Lord Prys-Davies. Although the case was effectively put at all those stages, it would be wrong if we did not fight the issue to the last ditch. To give Wales second-class status—that is what it amounts to—compared with Scotland is as offensive in this regard as in any other, and it will be keenly felt in Wales. I hope that I shall be forgiven for introducing a small note of dissention on the Opposition Benches when I say that the Labour party needs to understand the issue in relation to its proposals for devolution to Wales. If the Labour party does not understand that now, I am afraid that it will have to learn that lesson, to its cost, at a later stage.

The people of Wales want to be governed by bodies established in Wales. It is as simple as that. There is no justification for differentiating in practical terms between an environmental agency for Wales and the other all-Wales bodies that exist in similar and different areas. There is every reason to argue that the integration of environmental policy into all areas, which is a fundamental principle, would be far more effectively achieved if we had a separate agency for Wales. Such an agency would have the status of a national body and a range of expertise at its disposal, and should set its own priorities, which would differ in many ways from the priorities of an English or English and Welsh agency.

The Minister claimed in Committee that it would be difficult for a Welsh agency to develop the same expertise as its English counterpart or an England and Wales agency. I found that somewhat impertinent. There is ample expertise in Wales on environmental issues to ensure that an agency would be thoroughly effective.

Photo of Mr Alex Carlile Mr Alex Carlile , Montgomery

Including in the universities.

Photo of Mr Cynog Dafis Mr Cynog Dafis , Ceredigion and Pembroke North

Indeed, the expertise is in the universities, and elsewhere.

If the Minister's observations are based on economies of scale, they would apply equally to all-Wales bodies and the implication would be that they could all be abolished and subsumed within an England and Wales body.

Photo of Mr Cynog Dafis Mr Cynog Dafis , Ceredigion and Pembroke North

I notice that some members of the Government are nodding their approval of that suggestion. That should be noted carefully in Wales. It will not do much good to the remaining few votes that the Conservative party has in Wales. That argument is in favour of centralism, and it fails to understand the enormous advantages of organisations operating within a smaller geographical area in close co-operation with other organisations within that area. In Committee, the hon. Member for Lewisham, Deptford (Ms Ruddock) argued effectively that it is perfectly possible to have common standards between different agencies. In any case, that will increasingly have to apply on a European level.

5.30 pm

The argument that the direction of river flows requires one responsible organisation does not hold water, if I may be forgiven for using such an expression. It would be perfectly possible to establish working arrangements for close liaison and co-operation between two agencies for particular river basins, just as such arrangements exist between countries through which a river flows. The Rhine is a good example.

The suspicion must be that the real reason for not having an environmental agency for Wales is the fear that quangos—a dirty word currently—have a tendency to become genuinely quasi-autonomous, as their name suggests, by setting their own priorities and agendas. An environmental agency for Wales would be subject to the same process, which would be inconvenient to many an English Secretary of State for Wales. As has already been said, the efforts that the right hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr. Redwood) directed at the Countryside Council for Wales were a perfect example of that effect.

The Government must also face the reality that the Environment Agency will have to deal, sooner or later, with an all-Wales democratic body, albeit, possibly, the inadequate assembly currently proposed by the Labour party. That agency and the assembly would have to deal with each other, and that is a further compelling reason for establishing a separate agency for Wales.

We should have not merely a separate environment agency for Wales, but a separate Bill, which would be of a different nature from that currently before the House. The national parks would be dealt with in a different, radical manner if there were such a Bill for Wales, as would waste management, and it would have made a crucial contribution to the preparation of a sustainable development strategy for Wales. Unlike its Scottish counterpart, there is not yet even an all-Wales advisory group on sustainable development.

A Welsh environment agency would offer some small compensation for the absence of a thorough-going, all-Wales approach to environmental legislation. That mechanism would in some degree contribute to the process of preparing a sustainable development strategy for Wales according to Welsh priorities and needs.

I have a strong suspicion that the Government will be obdurate on the matter, but perhaps they could at least do us a courtesy now, by offering us an assurance that Wales will be given the status of a region on the basis of its long-established territorial boundaries. That is the purpose of my amendment No. 258. The Government should at least do us the courtesy of ensuring that when one talks about the Welsh region, that means Wales, no more and no less. That view is strongly supported by public opinion in Wales. Anything less than that would be deeply unpopular and further damage the Conservative party's reputation as being hopelessly out of touch with the reality of life in Wales and the aspirations of Welsh people.

Photo of Mr Alex Carlile Mr Alex Carlile , Montgomery

Any member of the Welsh public paying the extraordinary sum of £23.70 that is required to purchase the Bill, and who struggled through it and began to understand it, might be forgiven for thinking that Wales had been entirely forgotten by the Government. One suspects that Wales has been entirely forgotten by the Government, at least as a distinct entity and that they have decided to treat Wales simply as part of England, as they do so often.

When discussing the new clauses, we are, presumably, looking for the best way to achieve within Wales the principal aim of having such environmental agencies, as set out in clause 4(1). That aim is to protect or enhance the environment and also to attain the objective of achieving sustainable development. If, as has already been suggested in this short debate, it is not possible within Wales to achieve the competence or expertise necessary for a discrete Welsh environmental protection agency, I say on behalf of those working in connection with environmental matters in Wales and on behalf of the large Welsh academic community that that is complete twaddle.

One need only look at the constituent parts of the university of Wales, and particularly at the departments at the colleges at Bangor and Aberystwyth, to appreciate that the expertise of their experts in environmental protection is widely used by those in England who are interested in such matters. I would go as far as to say that that expertise is widely used by people all over the world who are interested in environmental protection. That competence applies across the range of environmental issues, whether one is talking about oceanology or forestry, and everything in between. Wales can not only staff its own environmental protection agency, but offer, under contract, its specialists' expertise to the English Environment Agency, to help it out when it runs out of its necessary skills.

There is a troubling analogy to be drawn between the Bill and the economic development of Wales. The reaction of the people of Wales to the abolition of the Welsh Development Agency, despite its warts, when it was subsumed—

Mr. Deputy Speaker:

Order. The hon. and learned Gentleman is making a general point. We are discussing not new clauses, but specific amendments.

Photo of Mr Alex Carlile Mr Alex Carlile , Montgomery

I remind you, Sir, that amendment No. 233 and the amendments tabled by the hon. Member for Ceredigion and Pembroke, North (Mr. Dafis) are designed to establish a separate environmental protection agency for Wales. The rationale for having such an agency for Wales is precisely the same as the rationale for having a separate Development Board for Rural Wales. If that development board were to be abolished today, as the former Secretary of State wished at one stage, and its work were subsumed under the Rural Development Commission, there would be a deficit in Wales of opportunity for rural development.

We believe that the environmental protection agency for Wales—were it to be a separate agency—could offer the same advantages to environmental protection and sustainable development in Wales as the development board has brought to the economic development of rural Wales. We also believe that a discrete Welsh agency could bring the same advantages to Wales as, remarkably, the WDA brought to north and to south Wales.

Other considerations powerfully assist in winning the argument that there should be a separate environmental agency for Wales. Rural Wales is still dominated by agriculture and, as is not the case in England, agriculture is the largest industry in Wales by a long way. It represents between 60 and 70 per cent. of the Welsh economy, although there is now some dispute about those figures. The figure was 70 per cent. when I entered the House 12 years ago. We are therefore talking about the protection not merely of the rural parts of the environment, which include agriculture, but of the environment that is worked by those involved in Wales's largest industry.

Wales needs a discrete environmental protection agency that is specifically empowered to marry together, and to compromise between, where necessary, those who work the environment, in a rapidly changing agricultural sector, and those who wish to protect the environment from some of the less attractive things that farmers do from time to time.

The farmers of rural Wales are actually very good environmentalists—after all, they have created the landscape that our very welcome visitors want to protect. One will not win their support by giving them an environmental protection agency that is English, that is English-dominated and that brings its expertise from England. Furthermore, in the relationship between England and Wales there are environmentally competitive issues, such as the effect of the development of different types of power station in England and the way in which that might affect Wales, or the building of new motorways in England, which may provide access to Wales.

There should be a dynamic between the Welsh Office and the Department of the Environment and other Government Departments such as the Department of Transport, which includes tension. That potential for dynamic tension is good for the people of Wales and it is good for the Government Departments involved. That dynamic tension would be usefully enhanced by the creation of a separate Welsh environmental protection agency, which would come under the overall control of the Welsh Office.

There is a great deal of rhetoric, perhaps especially during this frenetic period in our politics, about the need to bring government closer to the people. I applaud that; if politicians from any party are going to bring government closer to the people, that is a good thing. However, the Bill takes the management of environmental protection further from the people of Wales than it need be. An environmental protection agency for Wales would at least be regarded in Wales as taking proper account of the aspirations and needs of the people of Wales and of their environment.

For those reasons, I support the amendments.

Photo of Paul Beresford Paul Beresford Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Department of Environment)

As has been said, the issue of a separate Wales agency has been debated vigorously several times and we are not convinced that the needs of Wales would be best met by setting up separate agencies for England and Wales. The problems that the agency would need to tackle are common to England and Wales. The agency will need to develop and apply common solutions, and the job could not be carried out as effectively by two separate organisations, whatever liaison arrangements were set up.

A separate Welsh agency would not be able to develop the depth of expertise in certain aspects that would be allowed by a joint agency. I take an example. There are only 24 inspectorate of pollution staff for the Welsh region at the moment. I think that the hon. and learned Member for Montgomery (Mr. Carlile) will accept that, in that regard, it would be unreasonable and unrealistic to expect the expertise in a separate agency of that size to be able to offer a level of service equal to that of a combined agency.

Photo of Mr Alex Carlile Mr Alex Carlile , Montgomery

As he is the Minister responding to the debate, will the hon. Gentleman tell the House how many visits he has made to Wales to brief himself on the issue that he is now speaking to? Is it none?

Photo of Paul Beresford Paul Beresford Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Department of Environment)

I have visited Wales twice, not specifically for that purpose, but I am describing a rationale that I believe that it would be possible for the hon. and learned Gentleman to understand. He obviously cannot.

Photo of Mr Alex Carlile Mr Alex Carlile , Montgomery

It is pretty difficult.

Photo of Nick Ainger Nick Ainger , Pembroke

On the subject of whether there is sufficient critical mass in HMIP, will the Minister tell us how many people are currently employed by the Countryside Council for Wales, which is a separate agency from English Nature, and why that is allowed to continue as a separate agency in Wales, yet he refuses to allow HMIP, together with the National Rivers Authority and all the waste management officials, to form one agency?

Photo of Paul Beresford Paul Beresford Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Department of Environment)

I think that the hon. Gentleman will recognise that there are two alternative approaches. The approach that we are taking is that, where possible, if there is one agency, some functions will be able to become more localised. I shall mention that when I briefly discuss amendment No. 258. However, in some aspects of the agency's functions, the combination of the two in one agency would be far more effective.

One of the great benefits of the joint England and Wales agency, and one of its major aims, will be that it will operate to the same standard levels of regulation and it will provide consistent levels of quality of service throughout England and Wales. That has not been the case in the past—for example, in the regulation of waste management by local authorities--throughout England and Wales. A business operating in England and Wales will be subject to the same standards of regulation in each of its sites.

Photo of Mr Cynog Dafis Mr Cynog Dafis , Ceredigion and Pembroke North

I was wondering whether the same principle would apply in relation to Scotland. Is the Minister saying that the same standards will not apply as between England and Scotland? Or is it that he does not believe that it would matter if the same standards did not apply between England and Scotland?

Photo of Paul Beresford Paul Beresford Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Department of Environment) 5:45 pm, 28th June 1995

We discussed that earlier. Scotland has a different legal system and a different institutional history. It has no national river authority at present; it has separate river purification boards, and so on.

Waste management, as the hon. Gentleman is aware, is but one aspect of the agency's whole service. I recognise, however, that the specific needs of Wales will have to be taken into account. The current provisions of the Bill aim to protect Welsh interests in several ways, building up the arrangements successfully put into practice by the National Rivers Authority, which was set up on a similar England and Wales basis.

The Secretary of State for Wales will be responsible for setting the policy framework in which the agency will discharge its functions in Wales, and will exercise an appellate role over the whole of Wales. The agency will report to him on the discharge of its functions in Wales. We shall ensure that Welsh Office Ministers will have an input into the policy and corporate planning process of the agency, and the arrangements for those will be defined in a memorandum of understanding between the agency and the Welsh Office.

The Secretary of State for Wales will be responsible for the appointment of one member to the agency board. [Interruption.] We have an acting Secretary of State for Wales at the moment. Welsh industries will be further protected by the existence of the advisory committee for Wales, which will be advised by the Secretary of State for Wales on issues relating to the agency.

Let us turn to Amendment No. 258. As has been said, the Welsh region consists of the whole of Wales and we are considering a number of proposals made by the Environment Agency advisory committee last week. Under those proposals, the regional environment protection agency advisory committee for Wales would include the whole of the geopolitical area of Wales.

I agree that Wales should have a strong identity. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] That was said with a clear English accent. I also recognise the need to take account of the different operational requirements. The Government appreciate the need for recognition of the language and we therefore tabled amendment No. 40, which will confer a Welsh name on the agency.

Photo of Paul Beresford Paul Beresford Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Department of Environment)

I suspected that I would be asked to say it. As I am an ethnic minority immigrant with a naturalised British citizenship, it would be offensive to Welsh ears if I tried to pronounce it, and as unrealistic to ask me to do so as for me to ask some of the Welsh Members to spell Aotearoa.

The amendment will ensure that the agency has a Welsh name, which it will be able to use, as appropriate, from the moment of its establishment, rather than waiting to have a Welsh name conferred on it by the order under the Welsh Language Act 1993.

Question put, That the amendment be made:—

The House divided: Ayes 271, Noes 230.

Division No. 181][5.48 pm
Ainsworth, Peter (East Surrey)Butterfill, John
Aitken, Rt Hon JonathanCarlisle, John (Luton North)
Alison, Rt Hon Michael (Selby)Carlisle, Sir Kenneth (Lincoln)
Allason, Rupert (Torbay)Carrington, Matthew
Amess, DavidCarttiss, Michael
Arbuthnot, JamesCash, William
Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham)Channon, Rt Hon Paul
Arnold, Sir Thomas (Hazel Grv)Chapman, Sydney
Ashby, DavidClark, Dr Michael (Rochford)
Atkins, Rt Hon RobertClarke, Rt Hon Kenneth (Ru'clif)
Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey
Baker, Nicholas (North Dorset)Coe, Sebastian
Baldry, TonyCongdon, David
Banks, Matthew (Southport)Conway, Derek
Bates, MichaelCormack, Sir Patrick
Batiste, SpencerCouchman, James
Bendall, VivianCran, James
Beresford, Sir PaulCurry, David (Skipton & Ripon)
Biffen, Rt Hon JohnDavies, Quentin (Stamford)
Body, Sir RichardDavis, David (Boothferry)
Booth, HartleyDay, Stephen
Boswell, TimDeva, Nirj Joseph
Bottomley, Peter (Eltham)Devlin, Tim
Bottomley, Rt Hon VirginiaDicks, Terry
Bowis, JohnDorrell, Rt Hon Stephen
Boyson, Rt Hon Sir RhodesDouglas-Hamilton, Lord James
Brandreth, GylesDover, Den
Brazier, JulianDuncan, Alan
Bright, Sir GrahamDuncan-Smith, Iain
Brooke, Rt Hon PeterDunn, Bob
Brown, M (Brigg & Cl'thorpes)Dykes, Hugh
Browning, Mrs AngelaEggar, Rt Hon Tim
Bruce, Ian (Dorset)Elletson, Harold
Budgen, NicholasEvans, David (Welwyn Hatfield)
Burns, SimonEvans, Jonathan (Brecon)
Burt, AlistairEvans, Nigel (Ribble Valley)
Butcher, JohnEvans, Roger (Monmouth)
Butler, PeterEvennett, David
Faber, DavidLightbown, David
Field, Barry (Isle of Wight)Lilley, Rt Hon Peter
Fishburn, DudleyLloyd, Rt Hon Sir Peter (Fareham)
Forman, NigelLord, Michael
Forsyth, Rt Hon Michael (Stirling)Luff, Peter
Forth, EricLyell, Rt Hon Sir Nicholas
Fox, Sir Marcus (Shipley)MacKay, Andrew
Freeman, Rt Hon RogerMaclean, Rt Hon David
French, DouglasMcLoughlin, Patrick
Gale, RogerMcNair-Wilson, Sir Patrick
Gallie, PhilMadel, Sir David
Gardiner, Sir GeorgeMaitland, Lady Olga
Garel-Jones, Rt Hon TristanMajor, Rt Hon John
Garnier, EdwardMans, Keith
Gillan, CherylMarlow, Tony
Goodlad, Rt Hon AlastairMarshall, John (Hendon S)
Goodson-Wickes, Dr CharlesMarshall, Sir Michael (Arundel)
Gorman, Mrs TeresaMartin, David (Portsmouth S)
Grant, Sir A (SW Cambs)Mawhinney, Rt Hon Dr Brian
Greenway, Harry (Ealing N)Mellor, Rt Hon David
Greenway, John (Ryedale)Merchant, Piers
Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth, N)Mills, Iain
Gummer, Rt Hon John SelwynMitchell, Andrew (Gedling)
Hague, WilliamMitchell, Sir David (NW Hants)
Hamilton, Rt Hon Sir ArchibaldMoate, Sir Roger
Hamilton, Neil (Tatton)Monro, Sir Hector
Hampson, Dr KeithMontgomery, Sir Fergus
Hanley, Rt Hon JeremyNeedham, Rt Hon Richard
Hannam, Sir JohnNelson, Anthony
Hargreaves, AndrewNeubert, Sir Michael
Harris, DavidNewton, Rt Hon Tony
Haselhurst, Sir AlanNicholls, Patrick
Hawkins, NickNicholson, David (Taunton)
Hawksley, WarrenNicholson, Emma (Devon West)
Hayes, JerryNorris, Steve
Heald, OliverOnslow, Rt Hon Sir Cranley
Heath, Rt Hon Sir EdwardOppenheim, Phillip
Heathcoat-Amory, DavidOttaway, Richard
Hendry, CharlesPage, Richard
Higgins, Rt Hon Sir TerencePaice, James
Hill, James (Southampton Test)Patnick, Sir Irvine
Hogg, Rt Hon Douglas (G'tham)Patten, Rt Hon John
Horam, JohnPattie, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey
Hordern, Rt Hon Sir PeterPawsey, James
Howard, Rt Hon MichaelPorter, Barry (Wirral S)
Howarth, Alan (Strat'rd-on-A)Powell, William (Corby)
Howell, Rt Hon David (G'dford)Renton, Rt Hon Tim
Howell, Sir Ralph (N Norfolk)Richards, Rod
Hughes, Robert G (Harrow W)Riddick, Graham
Hunter, AndrewRobathan, Andrew
Hurd, Rt Hon DouglasRoberts, Rt Hon Sir Wyn
Jack, MichaelRobertson, Raymond (Ab'd'n S)
Jackson, Robert (Wantage)Robinson, Mark (Somerton)
Jenkin, BernardRoe, Mrs Marion (Broxbourne)
Johnson Smith, Sir GeoffreyRowe, Andrew (Mid Kent)
Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N)Rumbold, Rt Hon Dame Angela
Jones, Robert B (W Hertfdshr)Ryder, Rt Hon Richard
Jopling, Rt Hon MichaelSackville, Tom
Kellett-Bowman, Dame ElaineSainsbury, Rt Hon Sir Timothy
Key, RobertScott, Rt Hon Sir Nicholas
Kirkhope, TimothyShaw, David (Dover)
Knapman, RogerShephard, Rt Hon Gillian
Knight, Mrs Angela (Erewash)Shepherd, Colin (Hereford)
Knight, Greg (Derby N)Shepherd, Richard (Aldridge)
Knight, Dame Jill (Bir'm E'st'n)Shersby, Sir Michael
Knox, Sir DavidSims, Roger
Kynoch, George (Kincardine)Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield)
Lait, Mrs JacquiSoames, Nicholas
Lamont, Rt Hon NormanSpencer, Sir Derek
Lang, Rt Hon IanSpicer, Sir James (W Dorset)
Lawrence, Sir IvanSpicer, Michael (S Worcs)
Legg, BarrySpink, Dr Robert
Leigh, EdwardSpring, Richard
Lennox-Boyd, Sir MarkSproat, Iain
Lester, Jim (Broxtowe)Squire, Robin (Hornchurch)
Lidington, DavidStanley, Rt Hon Sir John
Steen, AnthonyWaldegrave, Rt Hon William
Stephen, MichaelWalden, George
Stern, MichaelWalker, Bill (N Tayside)
Stewart, AllanWaller, Gary
Streeter, GaryWard, John
Sumberg, DavidWardle, Charles (Bexhill)
Sweeney, WalterWaterson, Nigel
Sykes, JohnWatts, John
Tapsell, Sir PeterWhitney, Ray
Taylor, Ian (Esher)Whittingdale, John
Widdecombe, Ann
Taylor, John M (Solihull)Wilkinson, John
Temple-Morris, PeterWilletts, David
Thomason, RoyWilshire, David
Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N)Winterton, Mrs Ann (Congleton)
Thornton, Sir MalcolmWinterton, Nicholas (Macclesfield)
Thurnham, PeterWolfson, Mark
Townsend, Cyril D (Bexl'yh'th)Wood, Timothy
Tracey, RichardYeo, Tim
Tredinnick, DavidYoung, Rt Hon Sir George
Trend, Michael
Trotter, NevilleTellers for the Ayes:
Twinn, Dr IanMr. Bowen Wells and
Vaughan, Sir GerardDr. Liam Fox.
Abbott, Ms DianeCorbett, Robin
Adams, Mrs IreneCorbyn, Jeremy
Ainger, NickCousins, Jim
Ainsworth, Robert (Cov'try NE)Cunningham, Jim (Covy SE)
Alton, DavidCunningham, Rt Hon Dr John
Anderson, Donald (Swansea E)Dafis, Cynog
Armstrong, HilaryDavies, Ron (Caerphilly)
Austin-Walker, JohnDenham, John
Barnes, HarryDewar, Donald
Barron, KelvinDixon, Don
Battle, JohnDobson, Frank
Bayley, HughDonohoe, Brian H
Beckett, Rt Hon MargaretDowd, Jim
Beggs, RoyEagle, Ms Angela
Bell, StuartEastham, Ken
Bennett, Andrew FEtherington, Bill
Benton, JoeEvans, John (St Helens N)
Bermingham, GeraldFatchett, Derek
Berry, RogerFaulds, Andrew
Betts, CliveField, Frank (Birkenhead)
Blair, Rt Hon TonyFisher, Mark
Boateng, PaulFlynn, Paul
Bray, Dr JeremyForsythe, Clifford (S Antrim)
Brown, Gordon (Dunfermline E)Foster, Rt Hon Derek
Brown, N (N'c'tle upon Tyne E)Foster, Don (Bath)
Burden, RichardFoulkes, George
Byers, StephenFraser, John
Caborn, RichardFyfe, Maria
Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)Galbraith, Sam
Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE)Galloway, George
Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth Valley)Gapes, Mike
Cann, JamieGarrett, John
Carlile, Alexander (Montgomery)Gerrard, Neil
Chidgey, DavidGodman, Dr Norman A
Chisholm, MalcolmGodsiff, Roger
Church, JudithGolding, Mrs Llin
Clapham, MichaelGordon, Mildred
Clark, Dr David (South Shields)Graham, Thomas
Clarke, Eric (Midlothian)Grant, Bernie (Tottenham)
Clarke, Tom (Monklands W)Grocott, Bruce
Clelland, DavidGunnell, John
Clwyd, Mrs AnnHain, Peter
Coffey, AnnHanson, David
Cohen, HarryHarman, Ms Harriet
Connarty, MichaelHarvey, Nick
Cook, Frank (Stockton N)Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy
Cook, Robin (Livingston)Henderson, Doug
Heppell, JohnO'Hara, Edward
Hill, Keith (Streatham)Olner, Bill
Hinchliffe, DavidO'Neill, Martin
Hodge, MargaretOrme, Rt Hon Stanley
Hoey, KateParry, Robert
Hogg, Norman (Cumbernauld)Pearson, Ian
Hood, JimmyPike, Peter L
Hoon, GeoffreyPowell, Ray (Ogmore)
Howarth, George (Knowsley North)Prentice, Bridget (Lew'm E)
Howells, Dr. Kim (Pontypridd)Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)
Hoyle, DougPrescott, Rt Hon John
Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)Primarolo, Dawn
Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen North)Purchase, Ken
Hutton, JohnQuin, Ms Joyce
Illsley, EricRadice, Giles
Jackson, Glenda (H'stead)Randall, Stuart
Jackson, Helen (Shef'ld, H)Raynsford, Nick
Jamieson, DavidReid, Dr John
Janner, GrevilleRendel, David
Jones, Lynne (B'ham S O)Robertson, George (Hamilton)
Jones, Martyn (Clwyd, SW)Robinson, Geoffrey (Co'try NW)
Jones, Nigel (Cheltenham)Roche, Mrs Barbara
Jowell, TessaRooker, Jeff
Keen, AlanRooney, Terry
Khabra, Piara SRoss, Ernie (Dundee W)
Kilfoyle, PeterRoss, William (E Londonderry)
Kirkwood, ArchyRowlands, Ted
Lestor, Joan (Eccles)Ruddock, Joan
Lewis, TerrySalmond, Alex
Liddell, Mrs HelenSedgemore, Brian
Livingstone, KenSheerman, Barry
Lloyd, Tony (Stetford)Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert
Llwyd, ElfynShore, Rt Hon Peter
Loyden, EddieShort, Clare
Lynne, Ms LizSimpson, Alan
McAllion, JohnSkinner, Dennis
McAvoy, ThomasSmith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent)
McCartney, RobertSmyth, The Reverend Martin
Macdonald, CalumSoley, Clive
McFall, JohnSpearing, Nigel
McKelvey, WilliamSpellar, John
Mackinlay, AndrewSteel, Rt Hon Sir David
McLeish, HenryStrang, Dr. Gavin
McMaster, GordonStraw, Jack
MacShane, DenisSutcliffe, Gerry
Maddock, DianaTaylor, Mrs Ann (Dewsbury)
Mahon, AliceTaylor, Matthew (Truro)
Marek, Dr JohnTimms, Stephen
Marshall, David (Shettleston)Tipping, Paddy
Marshall, Jim (Leicester, S)Touhig, Don
Martin, Michael J (Springburn)Tyler, Paul
Meacher, MichaelVaz, Keith
Meale, AlanWalker, Rt Hon Sir Harold
Michael, AlunWallace, James
Michie, Bill (Sheffield Heeley)Walley, Joan
Milburn, AlanWardell, Gareth (Gower)
Mitchell, Austin (Gt Grimsby)Wareing, Robert N
Molyneaux, Rt Hon JamesWelsh, Andrew
Moonie, Dr LewisWicks, Malcolm
Morgan, RhodriWigley, Dafydd
Morley, ElliotWilliams, Rt Hon Alan (Sw'n W)
Morris, Estelle (B'ham Yardley)Williams, Alan W (Carmarthen)
Morris, Rt Hon John (Aberavon)Wise, Audrey
Mowlam, MarjorieWorthington, Tony
Mudie, GeorgeWright, Dr Tony
Mullin, ChrisYoung, David (Bolton SE)
Murphy, Paul
Oakes, Rt Hon GordonTellers for the Noes:
O'Brien, Mike (N W'kshire)Mr. Jon Owen Jones and
O'Brien, William (Normanton)Mr. Dennis Turner.

Question accordingly agreed to.