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With this, it will be convenient to discuss also the following: New clause 19—Environmental integration—
New clause 27—Integration of environmental considerations into discharge of functions—
May I add my congratulations to you, Mr. Deputy Speaker? No discourtesy was intended by my not doing so initially. Also, I have not yet congratulated the Minister on his elevation, although I know that my colleagues did so at the most recent Environment questions.
It is my pleasure to speak in support of the new clause and those grouped with it. We would be delighted if the Minister were minded to accept any new clause that gave force to the requirement that environmental considerations be integrated, where appropriate, into every aspect of public policy. As with so many other issues that we have discussed during the passage of the Bill, however, the Government claim to be wholeheartedly in favour of a commonsense and environmentally friendly proposal, but never find themselves in a position to vote for it.
The notion of sustainable development—development that meets the needs of present generations without jeopardising the ability of future generations to meet theirs—must lie at the heart of any debate on the environment. As the Government would be the first to acknowledge, no Environment Agency and no Department of State can begin to achieve sustainable development alone; it requires a systematic approach—the limiting of the use of finite resources, the reduction of pollutants from every source, the conservation of energy and the minimising of waste, for example.
In short, such considerations ought to be at the heart of all policy making. The Secretary of State for the Environment claimed as much when he said that the Government
have put in place perhaps the most comprehensive machinery of government to manage the environment to be found anywhere in the world."—[0fficial Report, 18 April 1995; Vol. 258, c. 35.]
He does boast, does he not? We wish that that claim was justified, but it is our view and that of all the major conservation groups, especially the Council for the Protection of Rural England, that existing mechanisms for achieving environmental integration are weak and inadequate for the task.
New clause 1 is not a programme in itself. It offers a statutory framework to stiffen the Government's commitment and to require those in public office to examine their policies and actions in the light of environmental considerations.
In Committee, the Government resisted such notions being brought into statute, yet the Minister was at pains to tell us of their achievements in appointing green Ministers and in their report, "Green Housekeeping". I only wish that there were more hon. Members in the Chamber tonight because I suspect that, for most of them, the existence of the "Green Housekeeping" document will come as a great surprise. The Government did not trumpet it in the way that they do so many of their other publications. Sadly, as we heard in Committee, the green Ministers rarely meet and little is known of them.
Since 1993, all Government Departments have produced and published cost compliance assessments, evaluating the cost of any of their proposals on the business sector. The Government demonstrate great enthusiasm for such tests. I trust that today we shall see some enthusiasm for an environmental compliance assessment, which we would very much support. Examining the environmental implications of any policy or draft legislation would undoubtedly ensure a higher priority for the environment.
Labour Front-Bench Members intend to be brief when moving our new clauses because we understand hon. Members' interest in this debate. In conclusion, therefore, integration of environmental considerations into public policy ought to be a prerequisite in an Environment Bill that establishes environment agencies for the first time and looks forward to the 21st century. Sustainable development cannot be achieved unless the integration of environmental considerations is at the heart of all public policy.
Amendment No. 256 would have placed a duty on the Environment Agency to advise Ministers on matters that it considered relevant to environmental sustainability. As my amendment was not selected, I am pleased to support Labour's new clause 1 very strongly.
The Bill's weakness is that it persists—as the Government persist—in regarding the environment as one issue among several, rather than as the basis of all life, improvement and development, so it does not put in place a mechanism for the integration of environmental issues into policy decisions in all Departments. No such mechanism exists.
We gather that the Cabinet Environment Sub-Committee meets infrequently. As has been said, green Ministers in different Departments do not have the function of greening policy in their Departments, but of studying housekeeping within them. The round table and Sir Crispin Tickell's panel, excellent though they are, have the function only of developing ideas and offering advice to the Government, which does not carry the thing any further.
It is apparent that the nature of policies developed in the Departments of Transport and of Trade and Industry and the Treasury has a huge influence on the extent to which our lives, our economy and our social systems are environmentally sustainable. The Department of the Environment has an influence, but others possibly have even more.
It is clear, however, that the Treasury does not see itself as having anything to do with sustainability. I mentioned on Second Reading a letter that I received from the Chancellor of the Exchequer in which he referred to the failure of his civil servants to attend a meeting of the House of Lords Committee on Sustainable Development. The letter says:
The Government's strategy for Sustainable Development is the responsibility of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment. I was therefore not persuaded that it would be appropriate for Treasury officials to give oral evidence on the subject as a whole to the Committee on 7 February".
That attitude illustrates the need for mechanisms to ensure that all Departments address the issue each time that they develop any policy initiative. I am pleased to support new clause 1, which at least has the merit of putting a requirement on the statute book.
I support new clause 1, which has been tabled by the Labour party, but I shall address my comments to new clauses 19 and 27, which my hon. Friends and I tabled, and which have the same aim—to ensure that environmental considerations are integrated into the decision-making process of Departments, Ministers and public bodies.
As it stands, the Bill misses an opportunity to promote the integration of environmental concerns in all areas of government, despite the Government's recognition of the importance of such integration, and despite the White Papers issued on the environment since 1990—the 1994 "Sustainable Development Strategy" and the 1995 UK annual report.
The Secretary of State claimed on Second Reading that the Government had put in place
perhaps the most comprehensive machinery of government to manage the environment to be found anywhere in the world."—[Official Report, 18 April 1995; Vol. 258, c. 35.]
Although the introduction of a Cabinet Sub-Committee on the Environment, the designation of green Ministers in each Department and the sustainable development round table are welcome initiatives, there is little evidence that they have had a significant impact on the integration of environmental considerations across government—certainly outside the Department of the Environment.
Existing mechanisms for achieving environmental integration are inadequate. The Bill provides a chance to establish new procedures to ensure that the environment is put at the centre of the policy-making process. To that end, new clause 19 would require all public agencies to produce an environmental compliance assessment—an assessment that would scrutinise the environmental implications of draft legislation and ensure that information gathered was taken into account in final decision making. That would give the environment a higher priority in decision making, and highlight the environmental impact of decisions that might otherwise be overlooked, such as transport-related pollution resulting from hospital closures.
Placing a duty on all public agencies to provide environmental compliance assessments is not a new concept. Since 1 April 1993, all Departments have produced cost compliance assessments that evaluate the costs of new proposals on the business sector. Such assessments are now routinely carried out. That system was introduced by the Government, and the new clause copies it, but in this case it would ensure that the costs to society from environmental impacts were assessed and addressed in policy formulation.
Many in local government already follow that process in their decision taking, as do several pioneering businesses. I hope that the Government will do the same. I believe that the introduction of environmental compliance assessments would significantly aid the Government's stated aim of ensuring that the environment is considered consistently across government. By accepting the new clause, or at least the principle behind it, the Government could demonstrate that they take that idea seriously.
New clause 27 simply aims to integrate matters in a watered-down manner. It stipulates:
Each relevant authority may consider the need to protect and enhance the environment
when making policy or carrying out its functions. If the Minister will not accept a requirement, surely he can at least allow the principle to be taken into account when organisations or the Government take decisions.
It will hardly come as a surprise to the Opposition that I must ask the House to reject new clauses 1, 19 and 27.
I should be happy to cover our record in detail, but perhaps at this stage in our intended discussions hon. Members would not want me to, and it would probably be unwise to do so. However, our record amply demonstrates our commitment to make progress on environmental integration and assessment.
Quite complex issues requiring careful judgments are often raised, and the new clauses would be of little practical value in improving on existing arrangements, but we are not content to rest on our laurels—we intend to consider how we can give added vigour to current arrangements. Each Department already has a green Minister—
The Minister will be aware that the Secretary of State told the Environment Select Committee on 17 May that he hoped that the green Ministers would meet about four times a year, but then admitted that they had not met for seven months. Have they met since then? When does the Minister expect them to meet again?
We have met twice this year and we shall meet again in July. Unlike the Labour party, which has an obsession with meeting and planning behind closed doors, we meet daily as and when matters affect our respective Departments. It is nonsense to suggest that the fact that we have had only two meetings during the year demonstrates a lack of commitment. Whenever issues related to environmental activity arise in the course of various Departments' business, Ministers have a view to express, and they do so bilaterally and multilaterally. That is the sensible way to do things, rather than holding formal meetings.
Our meetings are held on a regular basis in the course of the process of government. That does not necessarily require a full turnout of every green Minister every time. The hon. Lady asked about Brent Spar. As she well knows, that is a matter for the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food and the President of the Board of Trade. It is clear that they are the Departments whence the decisions emanated. When the matter was discussed, my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade told the House exactly what he thought about the situation, and I have nothing to add to that.
I remind the House that it is a long-established part of Government policy that the effects on the environment of existing and proposed policies need to be examined systematically. We committed ourselves formally to doing so in our White Paper, "This Common Inheritance", and we restated and carried forward our thinking in our 1994 sustainable development strategy. We have a green Minister in every Department, whose job it is to ensure that environmental considerations are integrated into the strategies and policies of Departments—a day-to-day responsibility, as opposed to the collective meetings of which I have already said a little.
The hon. Lady made great play of the fact that we have not made a great song and dance about the documents that we have produced. I remind the House that they include "Policy Appraisal and the Environment" in 1990 and "Environmental Appraisal in Government Departments" in 1994, which added to the economic appraisal that has been available for some time in the Treasury Green Book.
I am sure that the hon. Lady will accept that those documents are not everybody's bedtime reading, however important they may be to the process of government. It is in the process of government and within the corridors of power that the booklets have been read, and their influence there has been substantial. To suggest that that is not important seems a little shortsighted to me.
The Minister misunderstands my point. The "Green Housekeeping" report, which I have read, did not seem to have the same Government publicity machine behind it on publication as many other documents. If the Government are serious about integrating environmental considerations into the whole of Government policy, surely they ought to take the public with them. That is the key. The Government should encourage public understanding, information and support for such strategies, and I suggest that they have not done so.
The hon. Lady will recall that, when we discussed the matter in Committee, I made it clear that although we were pushing as hard as we could within the Government estate to be aware of all that should and can be done by various Departments, we did not always meet every objective. Being a reasonable person, she will understand that there are always pressures and difficulties that prevent our achieving some objectives. Some areas are better than others, and some are worse.
A lot of work remains to be done, and my Department, the Secretary of State and I are doing it. The documents to which the hon. Lady refers have been given publicity. They might not have aroused the amount of interest in the tabloids that we might have wished for but, in practice, they have been circulated, there is a lot of interest in them and they have had a lot of effect. It is, therefore, unfair to suggest that they have not done what we anticipated.
The Minister will be aware that, last year, his Department published planning policy guidance No. 13 on out-of-town retail developments. One of the reasons for the change was environmental consideration—reducing the number of cars on our roads travelling out of town to shop. Although he claims that Departments co-operate and are integrated, that planning policy guidance document has not yet been published in Wales and does not yet apply there. How, then, can he claim that the Government have an integrated policy and that Departments co-operate and work closely together?
I said that nothing in this world is perfect. There might be areas of weakness that we need to deal with, and I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for drawing the House's attention to an area that might need more pressure than it has had to date. I shall convey that message to my colleagues who are responsible for planning matters in the Department, although I am sure that my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State, the hon. Member for Croydon, Central (Sir P. Beresford), will have something to say on those matters—if he feels so inclined—later.
I have tried to deal with the concerns that have been raised. I am grateful to the hon. Member for Deptford for the terms in which she moved the new clause and the speed with which she moved it. As I said, however, we cannot accept new clause 1 and I therefore ask the House to reject it.
I simply wish to put it on record that, yet again, the Government have said that they believe in, and seek to do all that is embodied in, the new clause, the requirement of which is extremely simple—to have on the statute book a responsibility to integrate environmental considerations into areas of public policy making.
The Opposition can have no confidence that the Government follow, or intend to follow, that path if they are not prepared to have it enshrined in statute. We know from what has happened during the passage of the Bill—we suspect that it is why the Government will not accept the new clause—that, behind the scenes, much of the Government's commitment to environmental sustainability is challenged by commercial and private interests to which they subscribe and which they seek not to offend.
We believe that environmental considerations must be at the heart of all Government policies. We regret that the Government, who are so keen on cost compliance assessments, do not believe that the same consideration that is given to private financial concerns should be given to the enhancement of the environment.
|Division No. 177]||[5.33pm|
|Abbott, Ms Diane||Cook, Robin (Livingston)|
|Adams, Mrs Irene||Corbett, Robin|
|Ainger, Nick||Corbyn, Jeremy|
|Ainsworth, Robert (Cov'try NE)||Corston, Jean|
|Allen, Graham||Cousins, Jim|
|Alton, David||Cunningham, Jim (Covy SE)|
|Anderson, Donald (Swansea E)||Cunningham, Rt Hon Dr John|
|Armstrong, Hilary||Dafis, Cynog|
|Ashdown, Rt Hon Paddy||Dalyell, Tarn|
|Austin-Walker, John||Davidson, Ian|
|Barnes, Harry||Davies, Bryan (Oldham C'tral)|
|Barron, Kevin||Davies, Ron (Caerphilly)|
|Battle, John||Denham, John|
|Bayley, Hugh||Dewar, Donald|
|Beckett, Rt Hon Margaret||Dixon, Don|
|Bell, Stuart||Dobson, Frank|
|Benn, Rt Hon Tony||Donohoe, Brian H|
|Bennett, Andrew F||Dowd, Jim|
|Bermingham, Gerald||Eagle, Ms Angela|
|Berry, Roger||Eastham, Ken|
|Betts, Clive||Etherington, Bill|
|Blunkett, David||Evans, John (St Helens N)|
|Boateng, Paul||Fatchett, Derek|
|Bradley, Keith||Field, Frank (Birkenhead)|
|Bray, Dr Jeremy||Fisher, Mark|
|Brown, Gordon (Dunfermline E)||Flynn, Paul|
|Brown, N (N'c'tle upon Tyne E)||Forsythe, Clifford (S Antrim)|
|Burden, Richard||Foster, Rt Hon Derek|
|Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)||Foster, Don (Bath)|
|Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE)||Foulkes, George|
|Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V)||Fraser, John|
|Campbell-Savours, D N||Fyfe, Maria|
|Cann, Jamie||Galbraith, Sam|
|Carlile, Alexander (Montgomery)||Galloway, George|
|Chidgey, David||Gapes, Mike|
|Chisholm, Malcolm||Garrett, John|
|Church, Judith||Gerrard, Neil|
|Clapham, Michael||Godman, Dr Norman A|
|Clarke, Eric (Midlothian)||Golding, Mrs Llin|
|Clarke, Tom (Monklands W)||Gordon, Mildred|
|Clelland, David||Graham, Thomas|
|Clwyd, Mrs Ann||Grant, Bernie (Tottenham)|
|Coffey, Ann||Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)|
|Cohen, Harry||Grocott, Bruce|
|Gunnell, John||O'Brien, William (Normanton)|
|Hain, Peter||O'Hara, Edward|
|Hanson, David||Olner, Bill|
|Harvey, Nick||O'Neill, Martin|
|Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy||Orme, Rt Hon Stanley|
|Henderson, Doug||Parry, Robert|
|Heppell, John||Pearson, Ian|
|Hinchliffe, David||Pendry, Tom|
|Hodge, Margaret||Pickthall, Colin|
|Hogg, Norman (Cumbernauld)|
|Hood, Jimmy||Pike, Peter L|
|Hoon, Geoffrey||Pope, Greg|
|Howarth, George (Knowsley North)||Powell, Ray (Ogmore)|
|Howells, Dr. Kim (Pontypridd)||Prentice, Bridget (Lew'm E)|
|Hoyle, Doug||Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)|
|Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)||Primarolo, Dawn|
|Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N)||Purchase, Ken|
|Hughes, Simon (Southwark)||Quin, Ms Joyce|
|Hutton, John||Radice, Giles|
|Illsley, Eric||Randall, Stuart|
|Ingram, Adam||Reid, Dr John|
|Jackson, Helen (Shef'ld, H)||Robertson, George (Hamilton)|
|Jamieson, David||Roche, Mrs Barbara|
|Janner, Greville||Rooker, Jeff|
|Jones, leuan Wyn (Ynys Môn)||Rooney, Terry|
|Jones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C)||Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)|
|Jones, Lynne (B'ham S O)|
|Jones, Martyn (Clwyd, SW)||Ross, William (E Londonderry)|
|Jones, Nigel (Cheltenham)||Rowlands, Ted|
|Jowell, Tessa||Ruddock, Joan|
|Keen, Alan||Salmond, Alex|
|Kennedy, Jane (L'pool Br'dg'n)||Sedgemore, Brian|
|Khabra, Piara S||Sheerman, Barry|
|Kilfoyle, Peter||Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert|
|Lestor, Joan (Eccles)||Shore, Rt Hon Peter|
|Lewis, Terry||Short, Clare|
|Liddell, Mrs Helen||Skinner, Dennis|
|Livingstone, Ken||Smith, Andrew (Oxford E)|
|Lloyd, Tony (Stretford)||Smith, Chris (Isl'ton S & F'sbury)|
|Llwyd, Elfyn||Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent)|
|Loyden, Eddie||Spearing, Nigel|
|Lynne, Ms Liz||Steel, Rt Hon Sir David|
|McAllion, John||Steinberg, Gerry|
|McFall, John||Stevenson, George|
|McKelvey, William||Strang, Dr. Gavin|
|Mackinlay, Andrew||Straw, Jack|
|McLeish, Henry||Sutcliffe, Gerry|
|Maclennan, Robert||Taylor, Mrs Ann (Dewsbury)|
|McMaster, Gordon||Taylor, Matthew (Truro)|
|McNamara, Kevin||Timms, Stephen|
|MacShane, Denis||Tipping, Paddy|
|Maddock, Diana||Touhig, Don|
|Mahon, Alice||Trimble, David|
|Marek, Dr John||Turner, Dennis|
|Marshall, David (Shettleston)||Tyler, Paul|
|Marshall, Jim (Leicester, S)||Walker, Rt Hon Sir Harold|
|Martin, Michael J (Springburn)||Wallace, James|
|Martlew, Eric||Walley, Joan|
|Meacher, Michael||Wardell, Gareth (Gower)|
|Meale, Alan||Wareing, Robert N|
|Michael, Alun||Watson, Mike|
|Michie, Bill (Sheffield Heeley)|
|Milburn, Alan||Welsh, Andrew|
|Miller, Andrew||Wicks, Malcolm|
|Mitchell, Austin (Gt Grimsby)||Wigley, Dafydd|
|Moonie, Dr Lewis||Williams, Rt Hon Alan (Sw'n W)|
|Morgan, Rhodri||Williams, Alan W (Carmarthen)|
|Morley, Elliot||Wilson, Brian|
|Morris, Estelle (B'ham Yardley)||Wise, Audrey|
|Morris, Rt Hon John (Aberavon)||Wright, Dr Tony|
|Mudie, George||Young, David (Bolton SE)|
|Murphy, Paul||Tellers for the Ayes:|
|Oakes, Rt Hon Gordon||Mr. Stephen Byers and|
|O'Brien, Mike (N W'kshire)||Mr. Joe Benton.|
|Ainsworth, Peter (East Surrey)||Evans, Roger (Monmouth)|
|Aitken, Rt Hon Jonathan||Evennett, David|
|Alison, Rt Hon Michael (Selby)||Faber, David|
|Allason, Rupert (Torbay)||Field, Barry (Isle of Wight)|
|Amess, David||Fishburn, Dudley|
|Ancram, Michael||Forman, Nigel|
|Arbuthnot, James||Forth, Eric|
|Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham)||Fox, Dr Liam (Woodspring)|
|Arnold, Sir Thomas (Hazel Grv)||Fox, Sir Marcus (Shipley)|
|Ashby, David||Freeman, Rt Hon Roger|
|Atkins, Rt Hon Robert||French, Douglas|
|Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)||Gale, Roger|
|Baker, Rt Hon Kenneth (Mole V)||Gallie, Phil|
|Baker, Nicholas (North Dorset)||Gardiner, Sir George|
|Baldry, Tony||Garel-Jones, Rt Hon Tristan|
|Banks, Matthew (Southport)||Garnier, Edward|
|Batiste, Spencer||Gill, Christopher|
|Bellingham, Henry||Gillan, Cheryl|
|Beresford, Sir Paul||Goodlad, Rt Hon Alastair|
|Biffen, Rt Hon John||Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles|
|Body, Sir Richard||Grant,Sir A(SW Cambs)|
|Booth, Hartley||Greenway, Harry (Ealing N)|
|Boswell, Tim||Greenway, John (Ryedale)|
|Bottomley, Peter (Eltham)||Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth, N)|
|Bottomley, Rt Hon Virginia||Gummer, Rt Hon John Selwyn|
|Bowis, John||Hague, William|
|Boyson, Rt Hon Sir Rhodes||Hamilton, Rt Hon Sir Archibald|
|Brandreth, Gyles||Hanley, Rt Hon Jeremy|
|Brazier, Julian||Hannam, Sir John|
|Bright, Sir Graham||Hargreaves, Andrew|
|Brooke, Rt Hon Peter||Harris, David|
|Brown, M (Brigg & Cl'thorpes)||Haselhurst, Sir Alan|
|Browning, Mrs Angela||Hawkins, Nick|
|Bruce, Ian (Dorset)||Hawksley, Warren|
|Budgen, Nicholas||Hayes, Jerry|
|Burl, Alistair||Heald, Oliver|
|Butcher, John||Heathcoat-Amory, David|
|Butler, Peter||Hendry, Charles|
|Butterfill, John||Higgins, Rt Hon Sir Terence|
|Carlisle, Sir Kenneth (Lincoln)||Hill, James (Southampton Test)|
|Carrington, Matthew||Hogg, Rt Hon Douglas (G'tham)|
|Carttiss, Michael||Horam, John|
|Channon, Rt Hon Paul||Howard, Rt Hon Michael|
|Chapman, Sydney||Howarth, Alan (Strat'rd-on-A)|
|Churchill, Mr||Howell, Rt Hon David (G'dford)|
|Clappison, James||Howell, Sir Ralph (N Norfolk)|
|Clark, Dr Michael (Rochford)||Hughes, Robert G (Harrow W)|
|Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey||Hunt, Rt Hon David (Wirral W)|
|Coe, Sebastian||Jack, Michael|
|Congdon, David||Jackson, Robert (Wantage)|
|Conway, Derek||Jenkin, Bernard|
|Coombs, Simon (Swindon)||Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey|
|Cope, Rt Hon Sir John||Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N)|
|Cormack, Sir Patrick||Jopling, Rt Hon Michael|
|Couchman, James||Kellett-Bowman, Darne Elaine|
|Cran, James||Key, Robert|
|Curry, David (Skipton & Ripon)||Kirkhope, Timothy|
|Davies, Quentin (Stamford)||Knapman, Roger|
|Day, Stephen||Knight, Mrs Angela (Erewash)|
|Deva, Nirj Joseph||Knight, Greg (Derby N)|
|Devlin, Tim||Knight, Dame Jill (Bir'm E'st'n)|
|Dicks, Terry||Knox, Sir David|
|Dorrell, Rt Hon Stephen||Kynoch, George (Kincardine)|
|Dover, Den||Lait, Mrs Jacqui|
|Duncan, Alan||Lamont, Rt Hon Norman|
|Duncan-Smith, Iain||Lang, Rt Hon Ian|
|Dunn, Bob||Lawrence, Sir Ivan|
|Dykes, Hugh||Legg, Barry|
|Eggar, Rt Hon Tim||Leigh, Edward|
|Elletson, Harold||Lennox-Boyd, Sir Mark|
|Emery, Rt Hon Sir Peter||Lester, Jim (Broxtowe)|
|Evans, David (Welwyn Hatfield)||Lidington, David|
|Evans, Jonathan (Brecon)||Lightbown, David|
|Evans, Nigel (Ribble Valley)||Lilley, Rt Hon Peter|
|Lloyd, Rt Hon Sir Peter (Fareham)||Sainsbury, Rt Hon Sir Timothy|
|Lord, Michael||Scott, Rt Hon Sir Nicholas|
|Luff, Peter||Shaw, David (Dover)|
|Lyell, Rt Hon Sir Nicholas||Shephard, Rt Hon Gillian|
|MacGregor, Rt Hon John||Shepherd, Colin (Hereford)|
|MacKay, Andrew||Shepherd, Richard (Aldridge)|
|Maclean, Rt Hon David||Sims, Roger|
|McLoughlin, Patrick||Soames, Nicholas|
|McNair-Wilson, Sir Patrick||Spencer, Sir Derek|
|Madel, Sir David||Spicer, Michael (S Worcs)|
|Maitland, Lady Olga||Spink, Dr Robert|
|Malone, Gerald||Spring, Richard|
|Marland, Paul||Sproat, Iain|
|Marlow, Tony||Squire, Robin (Hornchurch)|
|Marshall, John (Hendon S)||Stanley, Rt Hon Sir John|
|Marshall, Sir Michael (Arundel)||Stephen, Michael|
|Martin, David (Portsmouth S)||Stem, Michael|
|Mawhinney, Rt Hon Dr Brian||Stewart, Allan|
|Merchant, Piers||Streeter, Gary|
|Mills, Iain||Sumberg, David|
|Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling)||Sweeney, Walter|
|Mitchell, Sir David (NW Hants)||Sykes, John|
|Moate, Sir Roger||Tapsell, Sir Peter|
|Monro, Sir Hector||Taylor, Ian (Esher)|
|Montgomery, Sir Fergus||Taylor, John M (Solihull)|
|Needham, Rt Hon Richard||Thomason, Roy|
|Nelson, Anthony||Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N)|
|Neubert, Sir Michael||Thornton, Sir Malcolm|
|Newton, Rt Hon Tony||Thurnham, Peter|
|Nicholls, Patrick||Townsend, Cyril D (Bexl'yh'th)|
|Nicholson, David (Taunton)||Tracey, Richard|
|Nicholson, Emma (Devon West)||Tredinnick, David|
|Norris, Steve||Trend, Michael|
|Onslow, Rt Hon Sir Cranley||Trotter, Neville|
|Ottaway, Richard||Twinn, Dr Ian|
|Page, Richard||Vaughan, Sir Gerard|
|Patnick, Sir Irvine||Waldegrave, Rt Hon William|
|Patten, Rt Hon John||Walden, George|
|Pattie, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey||Walker, Bill (N Tayside)|
|Pawsey, James||Waller, Gary|
|Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth||Ward, John|
|Pickles, Eric||Wardle, Charles (Bexhill)|
|Porter, Barry (Wirral S)||Waterson, Nigel|
|Porter, David (Waveney)||Watts, John|
|Portillo, Rt Hon Michael||Wells, Bowen|
|Powell, William (Corby)||Whitney, Ray|
|Redwood, Rt Hon John||Whittingdale, John|
|Renton, Rt Hon Tim||Wiggin, Sir Jerry|
|Richards, Rod||Wilkinson, John|
|Riddick, Graham||Willetts, David|
|Robathan, Andrew||Winterton, Mrs Ann (Congleton)|
|Roberts, Rt Hon Sir Wyn||Winterton, Nicholas (Macc'fld)|
|Robertson, Raymond (Ab'd'n S)||Wood, Timothy|
|Robinson, Mark (Somerton)||Yeo, Tim|
|Roe, Mrs Marion (Broxbourne)||Young, Rt Hon Sir George|
|Rowe, Andrew (Mid Kent)|
|Rumbold, Rt Hon Dame Angela||Tellers for the Noes:|
|Ryder, Rt Hon Richard||Mr. Simon Burns and|
|Sackville, Tom||Mr. Michael Bates.|
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. My office is located in Norman Shaw North. A number of colleagues and I encountered a problem on our way out of that building to attend the Division—the security sliding door connecting Norman Shaw North and Norman Shaw South to the Embankment was stuck closed. We could not get out. I am, unfortunately, slightly inhibited by another problem and I must say that I have done myself no good by trying to gallop to the House to attend the Division. Could something be done about that thoroughly unreliable and, I believe, now unnecessary security apparatus, which is extremely inconvenient to hon. Members? The door might have caused members of all political parties to fail to get to the previous Division in time and they, therefore, might have demanded of you a fresh Division.