Relevant Authorities to Define Requirements of Environmental Protection

New clause 1 – in the House of Commons at 4:45 pm on 27th June 1995.

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  1. `(1) It shall be the duty of each relevant authority to integrate requirements for environmental protection wherever applicable into its policies and plans and into the performance of its functions under any enactment.
  2. (2) For the purpose of this section "relevant authority" means—
    1. (a) any Minister of the Crown;
    2. (b) any public body,
    3. (c) any statutory undertaker; or
    4. (d) any person holding public office.'.—[Ms Ruddock]

Brought up, and read the First time.

Photo of Joan Ruddock Joan Ruddock , Lewisham, Deptford

I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

Photo of Mr Geoffrey Lofthouse Mr Geoffrey Lofthouse , Pontefract and Castleford

With this, it will be convenient to discuss also the following: New clause 19—Environmental integration

  1. '(1) It shall be the duty of each relevant authority—
    1. (a) to prepare an environmental compliance assessment prior to adoption or approval of any policies or before legislation is introduced into or laid before either House of Parliament which is likely to have significant effects on the environment.
    2. (b) to take account of the information provided by the environmental compliance assessment prepared under paragraph (a) above in the formulation and implementation of policies and legislation so as to avoid, reduce or minimise any adverse effects on the environment and, where possible, to enhance the environment.
  2. (2) For the purpose of this section "relevant authority" means:
    1. (a) any Minister of the Crown,
    2. (b) any public body,
    3. (c) any statutory undertaker, or
    4. (d) any person holding public office.'.

New clause 27—Integration of environmental considerations into discharge of functions

  1. '.—(1) Each relevant authority may consider the need to protect and enhance the environment when:
    1. (a) determining any policy; and
    2. (b) discharging any functions pursuant to any enactment
  2. (2) For the purpose of this section "relevant authority" means:
    1. (a) any Minister of the Crown
    2. (b) any other public body to which the Secretary of State may by regulations apply this section
  3. (3) The Agency may issue such guidance as it considers appropriate to any relevant authority with respect to the ways in which they should discharge their functions pursuant to subsection (1) above'.

Photo of Joan Ruddock Joan Ruddock , Lewisham, Deptford

May I add my congratulations to you, Mr. Deputy Speaker? No discourtesy was intended by my not doing so initially. Also, I have not yet congratulated the Minister on his elevation, although I know that my colleagues did so at the most recent Environment questions.

It is my pleasure to speak in support of the new clause and those grouped with it. We would be delighted if the Minister were minded to accept any new clause that gave force to the requirement that environmental considerations be integrated, where appropriate, into every aspect of public policy. As with so many other issues that we have discussed during the passage of the Bill, however, the Government claim to be wholeheartedly in favour of a commonsense and environmentally friendly proposal, but never find themselves in a position to vote for it.

The notion of sustainable development—development that meets the needs of present generations without jeopardising the ability of future generations to meet theirs—must lie at the heart of any debate on the environment. As the Government would be the first to acknowledge, no Environment Agency and no Department of State can begin to achieve sustainable development alone; it requires a systematic approach—the limiting of the use of finite resources, the reduction of pollutants from every source, the conservation of energy and the minimising of waste, for example.

In short, such considerations ought to be at the heart of all policy making. The Secretary of State for the Environment claimed as much when he said that the Government have put in place perhaps the most comprehensive machinery of government to manage the environment to be found anywhere in the world."—[0fficial Report, 18 April 1995; Vol. 258, c. 35.] He does boast, does he not? We wish that that claim was justified, but it is our view and that of all the major conservation groups, especially the Council for the Protection of Rural England, that existing mechanisms for achieving environmental integration are weak and inadequate for the task.

New clause 1 is not a programme in itself. It offers a statutory framework to stiffen the Government's commitment and to require those in public office to examine their policies and actions in the light of environmental considerations.

5.15 pm

In Committee, the Government resisted such notions being brought into statute, yet the Minister was at pains to tell us of their achievements in appointing green Ministers and in their report, "Green Housekeeping". I only wish that there were more hon. Members in the Chamber tonight because I suspect that, for most of them, the existence of the "Green Housekeeping" document will come as a great surprise. The Government did not trumpet it in the way that they do so many of their other publications. Sadly, as we heard in Committee, the green Ministers rarely meet and little is known of them.

Since 1993, all Government Departments have produced and published cost compliance assessments, evaluating the cost of any of their proposals on the business sector. The Government demonstrate great enthusiasm for such tests. I trust that today we shall see some enthusiasm for an environmental compliance assessment, which we would very much support. Examining the environmental implications of any policy or draft legislation would undoubtedly ensure a higher priority for the environment.

Labour Front-Bench Members intend to be brief when moving our new clauses because we understand hon. Members' interest in this debate. In conclusion, therefore, integration of environmental considerations into public policy ought to be a prerequisite in an Environment Bill that establishes environment agencies for the first time and looks forward to the 21st century. Sustainable development cannot be achieved unless the integration of environmental considerations is at the heart of all public policy.

Photo of Mr Cynog Dafis Mr Cynog Dafis , Ceredigion and Pembroke North

Amendment No. 256 would have placed a duty on the Environment Agency to advise Ministers on matters that it considered relevant to environmental sustainability. As my amendment was not selected, I am pleased to support Labour's new clause 1 very strongly.

The Bill's weakness is that it persists—as the Government persist—in regarding the environment as one issue among several, rather than as the basis of all life, improvement and development, so it does not put in place a mechanism for the integration of environmental issues into policy decisions in all Departments. No such mechanism exists.

We gather that the Cabinet Environment Sub-Committee meets infrequently. As has been said, green Ministers in different Departments do not have the function of greening policy in their Departments, but of studying housekeeping within them. The round table and Sir Crispin Tickell's panel, excellent though they are, have the function only of developing ideas and offering advice to the Government, which does not carry the thing any further.

It is apparent that the nature of policies developed in the Departments of Transport and of Trade and Industry and the Treasury has a huge influence on the extent to which our lives, our economy and our social systems are environmentally sustainable. The Department of the Environment has an influence, but others possibly have even more.

It is clear, however, that the Treasury does not see itself as having anything to do with sustainability. I mentioned on Second Reading a letter that I received from the Chancellor of the Exchequer in which he referred to the failure of his civil servants to attend a meeting of the House of Lords Committee on Sustainable Development. The letter says: The Government's strategy for Sustainable Development is the responsibility of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment. I was therefore not persuaded that it would be appropriate for Treasury officials to give oral evidence on the subject as a whole to the Committee on 7 February". That attitude illustrates the need for mechanisms to ensure that all Departments address the issue each time that they develop any policy initiative. I am pleased to support new clause 1, which at least has the merit of putting a requirement on the statute book.

Photo of Matthew Taylor Matthew Taylor Liberal Democrat Spokesperson (Environment)

I support new clause 1, which has been tabled by the Labour party, but I shall address my comments to new clauses 19 and 27, which my hon. Friends and I tabled, and which have the same aim—to ensure that environmental considerations are integrated into the decision-making process of Departments, Ministers and public bodies.

As it stands, the Bill misses an opportunity to promote the integration of environmental concerns in all areas of government, despite the Government's recognition of the importance of such integration, and despite the White Papers issued on the environment since 1990—the 1994 "Sustainable Development Strategy" and the 1995 UK annual report.

The Secretary of State claimed on Second Reading that the Government had put in place perhaps the most comprehensive machinery of government to manage the environment to be found anywhere in the world."—[Official Report, 18 April 1995; Vol. 258, c. 35.] Although the introduction of a Cabinet Sub-Committee on the Environment, the designation of green Ministers in each Department and the sustainable development round table are welcome initiatives, there is little evidence that they have had a significant impact on the integration of environmental considerations across government—certainly outside the Department of the Environment.

Existing mechanisms for achieving environmental integration are inadequate. The Bill provides a chance to establish new procedures to ensure that the environment is put at the centre of the policy-making process. To that end, new clause 19 would require all public agencies to produce an environmental compliance assessment—an assessment that would scrutinise the environmental implications of draft legislation and ensure that information gathered was taken into account in final decision making. That would give the environment a higher priority in decision making, and highlight the environmental impact of decisions that might otherwise be overlooked, such as transport-related pollution resulting from hospital closures.

Placing a duty on all public agencies to provide environmental compliance assessments is not a new concept. Since 1 April 1993, all Departments have produced cost compliance assessments that evaluate the costs of new proposals on the business sector. Such assessments are now routinely carried out. That system was introduced by the Government, and the new clause copies it, but in this case it would ensure that the costs to society from environmental impacts were assessed and addressed in policy formulation.

Many in local government already follow that process in their decision taking, as do several pioneering businesses. I hope that the Government will do the same. I believe that the introduction of environmental compliance assessments would significantly aid the Government's stated aim of ensuring that the environment is considered consistently across government. By accepting the new clause, or at least the principle behind it, the Government could demonstrate that they take that idea seriously.

New clause 27 simply aims to integrate matters in a watered-down manner. It stipulates: Each relevant authority may consider the need to protect and enhance the environment when making policy or carrying out its functions. If the Minister will not accept a requirement, surely he can at least allow the principle to be taken into account when organisations or the Government take decisions.

Photo of Mr Robert Atkins Mr Robert Atkins , South Ribble

It will hardly come as a surprise to the Opposition that I must ask the House to reject new clauses 1, 19 and 27.

I should be happy to cover our record in detail, but perhaps at this stage in our intended discussions hon. Members would not want me to, and it would probably be unwise to do so. However, our record amply demonstrates our commitment to make progress on environmental integration and assessment.

Quite complex issues requiring careful judgments are often raised, and the new clauses would be of little practical value in improving on existing arrangements, but we are not content to rest on our laurels—we intend to consider how we can give added vigour to current arrangements. Each Department already has a green Minister

Photo of Mr Andrew Bennett Mr Andrew Bennett , Denton and Reddish

The Minister will be aware that the Secretary of State told the Environment Select Committee on 17 May that he hoped that the green Ministers would meet about four times a year, but then admitted that they had not met for seven months. Have they met since then? When does the Minister expect them to meet again?

Photo of Mr Robert Atkins Mr Robert Atkins , South Ribble

We have met twice this year and we shall meet again in July. Unlike the Labour party, which has an obsession with meeting and planning behind closed doors, we meet daily as and when matters affect our respective Departments. It is nonsense to suggest that the fact that we have had only two meetings during the year demonstrates a lack of commitment. Whenever issues related to environmental activity arise in the course of various Departments' business, Ministers have a view to express, and they do so bilaterally and multilaterally. That is the sensible way to do things, rather than holding formal meetings.

Photo of Joan Ruddock Joan Ruddock , Lewisham, Deptford

Did the green Ministers discuss at their meeting the proposal to dump the Brent Spar in the Atlantic?

Photo of Mr Robert Atkins Mr Robert Atkins , South Ribble

The hon. Lady must not be mischievous.

Photo of Joan Ruddock Joan Ruddock , Lewisham, Deptford

The Minister accused the Labour party of meeting behind closed doors. Surely he would not want to be accused of doing the same.

Photo of Mr Robert Atkins Mr Robert Atkins , South Ribble

Our meetings are held on a regular basis in the course of the process of government. That does not necessarily require a full turnout of every green Minister every time. The hon. Lady asked about Brent Spar. As she well knows, that is a matter for the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food and the President of the Board of Trade. It is clear that they are the Departments whence the decisions emanated. When the matter was discussed, my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade told the House exactly what he thought about the situation, and I have nothing to add to that.

I remind the House that it is a long-established part of Government policy that the effects on the environment of existing and proposed policies need to be examined systematically. We committed ourselves formally to doing so in our White Paper, "This Common Inheritance", and we restated and carried forward our thinking in our 1994 sustainable development strategy. We have a green Minister in every Department, whose job it is to ensure that environmental considerations are integrated into the strategies and policies of Departments—a day-to-day responsibility, as opposed to the collective meetings of which I have already said a little.

The hon. Lady made great play of the fact that we have not made a great song and dance about the documents that we have produced. I remind the House that they include "Policy Appraisal and the Environment" in 1990 and "Environmental Appraisal in Government Departments" in 1994, which added to the economic appraisal that has been available for some time in the Treasury Green Book.

I am sure that the hon. Lady will accept that those documents are not everybody's bedtime reading, however important they may be to the process of government. It is in the process of government and within the corridors of power that the booklets have been read, and their influence there has been substantial. To suggest that that is not important seems a little shortsighted to me.

Photo of Joan Ruddock Joan Ruddock , Lewisham, Deptford

The Minister misunderstands my point. The "Green Housekeeping" report, which I have read, did not seem to have the same Government publicity machine behind it on publication as many other documents. If the Government are serious about integrating environmental considerations into the whole of Government policy, surely they ought to take the public with them. That is the key. The Government should encourage public understanding, information and support for such strategies, and I suggest that they have not done so.

Photo of Mr Robert Atkins Mr Robert Atkins , South Ribble

The hon. Lady will recall that, when we discussed the matter in Committee, I made it clear that although we were pushing as hard as we could within the Government estate to be aware of all that should and can be done by various Departments, we did not always meet every objective. Being a reasonable person, she will understand that there are always pressures and difficulties that prevent our achieving some objectives. Some areas are better than others, and some are worse.

A lot of work remains to be done, and my Department, the Secretary of State and I are doing it. The documents to which the hon. Lady refers have been given publicity. They might not have aroused the amount of interest in the tabloids that we might have wished for but, in practice, they have been circulated, there is a lot of interest in them and they have had a lot of effect. It is, therefore, unfair to suggest that they have not done what we anticipated.

Photo of Mr Jon Owen Jones Mr Jon Owen Jones , Cardiff Central

The Minister will be aware that, last year, his Department published planning policy guidance No. 13 on out-of-town retail developments. One of the reasons for the change was environmental consideration—reducing the number of cars on our roads travelling out of town to shop. Although he claims that Departments co-operate and are integrated, that planning policy guidance document has not yet been published in Wales and does not yet apply there. How, then, can he claim that the Government have an integrated policy and that Departments co-operate and work closely together?

Photo of Mr Robert Atkins Mr Robert Atkins , South Ribble 5:30 pm, 27th June 1995

I said that nothing in this world is perfect. There might be areas of weakness that we need to deal with, and I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for drawing the House's attention to an area that might need more pressure than it has had to date. I shall convey that message to my colleagues who are responsible for planning matters in the Department, although I am sure that my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State, the hon. Member for Croydon, Central (Sir P. Beresford), will have something to say on those matters—if he feels so inclined—later.

I have tried to deal with the concerns that have been raised. I am grateful to the hon. Member for Deptford for the terms in which she moved the new clause and the speed with which she moved it. As I said, however, we cannot accept new clause 1 and I therefore ask the House to reject it.

Photo of Joan Ruddock Joan Ruddock , Lewisham, Deptford

I simply wish to put it on record that, yet again, the Government have said that they believe in, and seek to do all that is embodied in, the new clause, the requirement of which is extremely simple—to have on the statute book a responsibility to integrate environmental considerations into areas of public policy making.

The Opposition can have no confidence that the Government follow, or intend to follow, that path if they are not prepared to have it enshrined in statute. We know from what has happened during the passage of the Bill—we suspect that it is why the Government will not accept the new clause—that, behind the scenes, much of the Government's commitment to environmental sustainability is challenged by commercial and private interests to which they subscribe and which they seek not to offend.

We believe that environmental considerations must be at the heart of all Government policies. We regret that the Government, who are so keen on cost compliance assessments, do not believe that the same consideration that is given to private financial concerns should be given to the enhancement of the environment.

Question put, That the clause be read a Second time:—

The House divided: Ayes 232, Noes 262.

Division No. 177][5.33pm
Abbott, Ms DianeCook, Robin (Livingston)
Adams, Mrs IreneCorbett, Robin
Ainger, NickCorbyn, Jeremy
Ainsworth, Robert (Cov'try NE)Corston, Jean
Allen, GrahamCousins, Jim
Alton, DavidCunningham, Jim (Covy SE)
Anderson, Donald (Swansea E)Cunningham, Rt Hon Dr John
Armstrong, HilaryDafis, Cynog
Ashdown, Rt Hon PaddyDalyell, Tarn
Austin-Walker, JohnDavidson, Ian
Barnes, HarryDavies, Bryan (Oldham C'tral)
Barron, KevinDavies, Ron (Caerphilly)
Battle, JohnDenham, John
Bayley, HughDewar, Donald
Beckett, Rt Hon MargaretDixon, Don
Bell, StuartDobson, Frank
Benn, Rt Hon TonyDonohoe, Brian H
Bennett, Andrew FDowd, Jim
Bermingham, GeraldEagle, Ms Angela
Berry, RogerEastham, Ken
Betts, CliveEtherington, Bill
Blunkett, DavidEvans, John (St Helens N)
Boateng, PaulFatchett, Derek
Bradley, KeithField, Frank (Birkenhead)
Bray, Dr JeremyFisher, Mark
Brown, Gordon (Dunfermline E)Flynn, Paul
Brown, N (N'c'tle upon Tyne E)Forsythe, Clifford (S Antrim)
Burden, RichardFoster, Rt Hon Derek
Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)Foster, Don (Bath)
Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE)Foulkes, George
Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V)Fraser, John
Campbell-Savours, D NFyfe, Maria
Cann, JamieGalbraith, Sam
Carlile, Alexander (Montgomery)Galloway, George
Chidgey, DavidGapes, Mike
Chisholm, MalcolmGarrett, John
Church, JudithGerrard, Neil
Clapham, MichaelGodman, Dr Norman A
Clarke, Eric (Midlothian)Golding, Mrs Llin
Clarke, Tom (Monklands W)Gordon, Mildred
Clelland, DavidGraham, Thomas
Clwyd, Mrs AnnGrant, Bernie (Tottenham)
Coffey, AnnGriffiths, Win (Bridgend)
Cohen, HarryGrocott, Bruce
Gunnell, JohnO'Brien, William (Normanton)
Hain, PeterO'Hara, Edward
Hanson, DavidOlner, Bill
Harvey, NickO'Neill, Martin
Hattersley, Rt Hon RoyOrme, Rt Hon Stanley
Henderson, DougParry, Robert
Heppell, JohnPearson, Ian
Hinchliffe, DavidPendry, Tom
Hodge, MargaretPickthall, Colin
Hogg, Norman (Cumbernauld)
Hood, JimmyPike, Peter L
Hoon, GeoffreyPope, Greg
Howarth, George (Knowsley North)Powell, Ray (Ogmore)
Howells, Dr. Kim (Pontypridd)Prentice, Bridget (Lew'm E)
Hoyle, DougPrentice, Gordon (Pendle)
Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)Primarolo, Dawn
Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N)Purchase, Ken
Hughes, Simon (Southwark)Quin, Ms Joyce
Hutton, JohnRadice, Giles
Illsley, EricRandall, Stuart
Ingram, AdamReid, Dr John
Jackson, Helen (Shef'ld, H)Robertson, George (Hamilton)
Jamieson, DavidRoche, Mrs Barbara
Janner, GrevilleRooker, Jeff
Jones, leuan Wyn (Ynys Môn)Rooney, Terry
Jones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C)Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)
Jones, Lynne (B'ham S O)
Jones, Martyn (Clwyd, SW)Ross, William (E Londonderry)
Jones, Nigel (Cheltenham)Rowlands, Ted
Jowell, TessaRuddock, Joan
Keen, AlanSalmond, Alex
Kennedy, Jane (L'pool Br'dg'n)Sedgemore, Brian
Khabra, Piara SSheerman, Barry
Kilfoyle, PeterSheldon, Rt Hon Robert
Lestor, Joan (Eccles)Shore, Rt Hon Peter
Lewis, TerryShort, Clare
Liddell, Mrs HelenSkinner, Dennis
Livingstone, KenSmith, Andrew (Oxford E)
Lloyd, Tony (Stretford)Smith, Chris (Isl'ton S & F'sbury)
Llwyd, ElfynSmith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent)
Loyden, EddieSpearing, Nigel
Lynne, Ms LizSteel, Rt Hon Sir David
McAllion, JohnSteinberg, Gerry
Macdonald, Calum
McFall, JohnStevenson, George
McKelvey, WilliamStrang, Dr. Gavin
Mackinlay, AndrewStraw, Jack
McLeish, HenrySutcliffe, Gerry
Maclennan, RobertTaylor, Mrs Ann (Dewsbury)
McMaster, GordonTaylor, Matthew (Truro)
McNamara, KevinTimms, Stephen
MacShane, DenisTipping, Paddy
Maddock, DianaTouhig, Don
Mahon, AliceTrimble, David
Marek, Dr JohnTurner, Dennis
Marshall, David (Shettleston)Tyler, Paul
Marshall, Jim (Leicester, S)Walker, Rt Hon Sir Harold
Martin, Michael J (Springburn)Wallace, James
Martlew, EricWalley, Joan
Meacher, MichaelWardell, Gareth (Gower)
Meale, AlanWareing, Robert N
Michael, AlunWatson, Mike
Michie, Bill (Sheffield Heeley)
Milburn, AlanWelsh, Andrew
Miller, AndrewWicks, Malcolm
Mitchell, Austin (Gt Grimsby)Wigley, Dafydd
Moonie, Dr LewisWilliams, Rt Hon Alan (Sw'n W)
Morgan, RhodriWilliams, Alan W (Carmarthen)
Morley, ElliotWilson, Brian
Morris, Estelle (B'ham Yardley)Wise, Audrey
Morris, Rt Hon John (Aberavon)Wright, Dr Tony
Mudie, GeorgeYoung, David (Bolton SE)
Mullin, Chris
Murphy, PaulTellers for the Ayes:
Oakes, Rt Hon GordonMr. Stephen Byers and
O'Brien, Mike (N W'kshire)Mr. Joe Benton.
Ainsworth, Peter (East Surrey)Evans, Roger (Monmouth)
Aitken, Rt Hon JonathanEvennett, David
Alison, Rt Hon Michael (Selby)Faber, David
Allason, Rupert (Torbay)Field, Barry (Isle of Wight)
Amess, DavidFishburn, Dudley
Ancram, MichaelForman, Nigel
Arbuthnot, JamesForth, Eric
Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham)Fox, Dr Liam (Woodspring)
Arnold, Sir Thomas (Hazel Grv)Fox, Sir Marcus (Shipley)
Ashby, DavidFreeman, Rt Hon Roger
Atkins, Rt Hon RobertFrench, Douglas
Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)Gale, Roger
Baker, Rt Hon Kenneth (Mole V)Gallie, Phil
Baker, Nicholas (North Dorset)Gardiner, Sir George
Baldry, TonyGarel-Jones, Rt Hon Tristan
Banks, Matthew (Southport)Garnier, Edward
Batiste, SpencerGill, Christopher
Bellingham, HenryGillan, Cheryl
Beresford, Sir PaulGoodlad, Rt Hon Alastair
Biffen, Rt Hon JohnGoodson-Wickes, Dr Charles
Body, Sir RichardGrant,Sir A(SW Cambs)
Booth, HartleyGreenway, Harry (Ealing N)
Boswell, TimGreenway, John (Ryedale)
Bottomley, Peter (Eltham)Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth, N)
Bottomley, Rt Hon VirginiaGummer, Rt Hon John Selwyn
Bowis, JohnHague, William
Boyson, Rt Hon Sir RhodesHamilton, Rt Hon Sir Archibald
Brandreth, GylesHanley, Rt Hon Jeremy
Brazier, JulianHannam, Sir John
Bright, Sir GrahamHargreaves, Andrew
Brooke, Rt Hon PeterHarris, David
Brown, M (Brigg & Cl'thorpes)Haselhurst, Sir Alan
Browning, Mrs AngelaHawkins, Nick
Bruce, Ian (Dorset)Hawksley, Warren
Budgen, NicholasHayes, Jerry
Burl, AlistairHeald, Oliver
Butcher, JohnHeathcoat-Amory, David
Butler, PeterHendry, Charles
Butterfill, JohnHiggins, Rt Hon Sir Terence
Carlisle, Sir Kenneth (Lincoln)Hill, James (Southampton Test)
Carrington, MatthewHogg, Rt Hon Douglas (G'tham)
Carttiss, MichaelHoram, John
Channon, Rt Hon PaulHoward, Rt Hon Michael
Chapman, SydneyHowarth, Alan (Strat'rd-on-A)
Churchill, MrHowell, Rt Hon David (G'dford)
Clappison, JamesHowell, Sir Ralph (N Norfolk)
Clark, Dr Michael (Rochford)Hughes, Robert G (Harrow W)
Clifton-Brown, GeoffreyHunt, Rt Hon David (Wirral W)
Coe, SebastianJack, Michael
Congdon, DavidJackson, Robert (Wantage)
Conway, DerekJenkin, Bernard
Coombs, Simon (Swindon)Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey
Cope, Rt Hon Sir JohnJones, Gwilym (Cardiff N)
Cormack, Sir PatrickJopling, Rt Hon Michael
Couchman, JamesKellett-Bowman, Darne Elaine
Cran, JamesKey, Robert
Curry, David (Skipton & Ripon)Kirkhope, Timothy
Davies, Quentin (Stamford)Knapman, Roger
Day, StephenKnight, Mrs Angela (Erewash)
Deva, Nirj JosephKnight, Greg (Derby N)
Devlin, TimKnight, Dame Jill (Bir'm E'st'n)
Dicks, TerryKnox, Sir David
Dorrell, Rt Hon StephenKynoch, George (Kincardine)
Dover, DenLait, Mrs Jacqui
Duncan, AlanLamont, Rt Hon Norman
Duncan-Smith, IainLang, Rt Hon Ian
Dunn, BobLawrence, Sir Ivan
Dykes, HughLegg, Barry
Eggar, Rt Hon TimLeigh, Edward
Elletson, HaroldLennox-Boyd, Sir Mark
Emery, Rt Hon Sir PeterLester, Jim (Broxtowe)
Evans, David (Welwyn Hatfield)Lidington, David
Evans, Jonathan (Brecon)Lightbown, David
Evans, Nigel (Ribble Valley)Lilley, Rt Hon Peter
Lloyd, Rt Hon Sir Peter (Fareham)Sainsbury, Rt Hon Sir Timothy
Lord, MichaelScott, Rt Hon Sir Nicholas
Luff, PeterShaw, David (Dover)
Lyell, Rt Hon Sir NicholasShephard, Rt Hon Gillian
MacGregor, Rt Hon JohnShepherd, Colin (Hereford)
MacKay, AndrewShepherd, Richard (Aldridge)
Maclean, Rt Hon DavidSims, Roger
McLoughlin, PatrickSoames, Nicholas
McNair-Wilson, Sir PatrickSpencer, Sir Derek
Madel, Sir DavidSpicer, Michael (S Worcs)
Maitland, Lady OlgaSpink, Dr Robert
Malone, GeraldSpring, Richard
Marland, PaulSproat, Iain
Marlow, TonySquire, Robin (Hornchurch)
Marshall, John (Hendon S)Stanley, Rt Hon Sir John
Marshall, Sir Michael (Arundel)Stephen, Michael
Martin, David (Portsmouth S)Stem, Michael
Mawhinney, Rt Hon Dr BrianStewart, Allan
Merchant, PiersStreeter, Gary
Mills, IainSumberg, David
Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling)Sweeney, Walter
Mitchell, Sir David (NW Hants)Sykes, John
Moate, Sir RogerTapsell, Sir Peter
Monro, Sir HectorTaylor, Ian (Esher)
Montgomery, Sir FergusTaylor, John M (Solihull)
Needham, Rt Hon RichardThomason, Roy
Nelson, AnthonyThompson, Patrick (Norwich N)
Neubert, Sir MichaelThornton, Sir Malcolm
Newton, Rt Hon TonyThurnham, Peter
Nicholls, PatrickTownsend, Cyril D (Bexl'yh'th)
Nicholson, David (Taunton)Tracey, Richard
Nicholson, Emma (Devon West)Tredinnick, David
Norris, SteveTrend, Michael
Onslow, Rt Hon Sir CranleyTrotter, Neville
Ottaway, RichardTwinn, Dr Ian
Page, RichardVaughan, Sir Gerard
Patnick, Sir IrvineWaldegrave, Rt Hon William
Patten, Rt Hon JohnWalden, George
Pattie, Rt Hon Sir GeoffreyWalker, Bill (N Tayside)
Pawsey, JamesWaller, Gary
Peacock, Mrs ElizabethWard, John
Pickles, EricWardle, Charles (Bexhill)
Porter, Barry (Wirral S)Waterson, Nigel
Porter, David (Waveney)Watts, John
Portillo, Rt Hon MichaelWells, Bowen
Powell, William (Corby)Whitney, Ray
Redwood, Rt Hon JohnWhittingdale, John
Renton, Rt Hon TimWiggin, Sir Jerry
Richards, RodWilkinson, John
Riddick, GrahamWilletts, David
Robathan, AndrewWinterton, Mrs Ann (Congleton)
Roberts, Rt Hon Sir WynWinterton, Nicholas (Macc'fld)
Robertson, Raymond (Ab'd'n S)Wood, Timothy
Robinson, Mark (Somerton)Yeo, Tim
Roe, Mrs Marion (Broxbourne)Young, Rt Hon Sir George
Rowe, Andrew (Mid Kent)
Rumbold, Rt Hon Dame AngelaTellers for the Noes:
Ryder, Rt Hon RichardMr. Simon Burns and
Sackville, TomMr. Michael Bates.

Question accordingly negatived.

Photo of Nicholas Winterton Nicholas Winterton , Macclesfield

On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. My office is located in Norman Shaw North. A number of colleagues and I encountered a problem on our way out of that building to attend the Division—the security sliding door connecting Norman Shaw North and Norman Shaw South to the Embankment was stuck closed. We could not get out. I am, unfortunately, slightly inhibited by another problem and I must say that I have done myself no good by trying to gallop to the House to attend the Division. Could something be done about that thoroughly unreliable and, I believe, now unnecessary security apparatus, which is extremely inconvenient to hon. Members? The door might have caused members of all political parties to fail to get to the previous Division in time and they, therefore, might have demanded of you a fresh Division.

Photo of Mr Geoffrey Lofthouse Mr Geoffrey Lofthouse , Pontefract and Castleford

I shall arrange for the problem to be investigated. The hon. Gentleman's remarks make me realise how wise I was to allow an extra minute for the Division.