Public Sector Operators Not to Be Franchisees

Clause 22 – in the House of Commons at 8:33 pm on 3rd November 1993.

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Lords amendment to a Commons amendment in lieu of a Lords amendment: 1A, in Subsection (4), line 2, leave out from first ("to") to ("in") and insert ("award a franchise under this Part").

Photo of Mr John MacGregor Mr John MacGregor Chair, Privileges Committee, The Secretary of State for Transport, Chair, Privileges Committee

I beg to move, That this House doth disagree with the Lords in the said amendment.

I shall also be asking the House to disagree with the other two. [Interruption.]

Mr. Deputy Speaker:

Order. The House must settle down. I gave the hon. Member for Newham, South the opportunity to put his point of order. [Interruption.] Let me have an opportunity to hear the hon. Gentleman's point of order. Mr. Spearing.

Photo of Mr Nigel Spearing Mr Nigel Spearing , Newham South

I am obliged to you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, for making the matter clear. I was under the impression that I was speaking to the debate, not to a point of order. But you have ruled that I am on a point of order, so I shall now put it to you.

Will you please confirm, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that, in the normal circumstances of the House, business that is brought to the House at short notice which, by its nature, cannot be transferred to those who wish to debate here, can be stopped by the House accepting a motion that the House do now adjourn. Will you please confirm that the timetable motion, which was moved by Her Majesty's Government a couple of days ago and accepted by the House, precludes that safeguard for keeping the minorities' rights alive? Therefore, the fact that the Question that has just been put, which was taken forthwith without opposition, means that we will not have the opportunity to move the Adjournment of the House?


Mr. Deputy Speaker:

Order. In an attempt to cool down the excitement, I inform the House that the hon. Member approached the Chair and asked to put that point of order. I took it to be a point of order and that is why I allowed it. I have now got the hon. Member's message, so I call the Secretary of State. [Interruption.]

Photo of Mr John MacGregor Mr John MacGregor Chair, Privileges Committee, The Secretary of State for Transport, Chair, Privileges Committee 8:45 pm, 3rd November 1993

I have already begged to move that the House doth disagree with the Lords in the said amendment, and I shall be asking the House to disagree with the other two as well. [Interruption.] The three amendments from the other place that we are being asked to debate are basically about one point, the bidding system for franchises. I remind the House of the objectives of the franchising system—

Photo of Ken Livingstone Ken Livingstone , Brent East

On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Will you assure the House that, unlike other Ministers proposing privatisation legislation, the Secretary of State for Transport will not be rewarded by a well-remunerated position on the privatised railways once this legislation has been pushed through—a big fat backhander, like all the rest of them had?

Mr. Deputy Speaker:

That is not a point of order for me, and it has taken up precious time.

Photo of Mr John MacGregor Mr John MacGregor Chair, Privileges Committee, The Secretary of State for Transport, Chair, Privileges Committee

—and they are all to improve the services for passengers. They will do so by promoting the competition for franchises, by encouraging management buy-outs to provide the franchises, by encouraging new entries into the passenger railway industry to provide more competition for franchises and by preventing the dominance of any one person or persons in the market. Those are the key objectives of the bidding system that we have for franchises.

The amendments passed in the other place this afternoon would seriously undermine all those objectives, for which the House voted last night by a clear majority. I have had reports of the debates in the other place, and the only speaker who addressed the amendments was my noble Friend the Minister for Aviation and Shipping. The rest of the speeches were all extremely general.

Therefore, I propose to address the amendments and explain to the House why we invite the House to reject the amendments.

Photo of Mr John MacGregor Mr John MacGregor Chair, Privileges Committee, The Secretary of State for Transport, Chair, Privileges Committee

If the hon. Gentleman will listen, I shall tell him the purpose of the amendments. I shall not give way, because we have only one hour. The clock is moving, and I know that many hon. Members wish to speak. There is not much time, and it is important that the House understands what we are discussing. I intend to address that, rather then what was said in the other place.

The first two amendments effectively say that the eligibility of a British Rail bid will be decided at the time of awarding the franchise rather than at the time of invitation for tender. [Interruption.] I am not at all surprised that Opposition Members do not wish to hear the arguments on the amendments; they have never done. That is part of the problem. They do not address the real issues. That is exactly why—[Interruption.]

Mr. Deputy Speaker:

Order. The Chair, and I am sure every other hon. Member, is having great difficulty in hearing the Secretary of State. The House must now settle down and get down to the serious debate. Before we do that, I shall take one last point of order from the hon. Member for Walsall, North (Mr. Winnick).

Photo of David Winnick David Winnick , Walsall North

The Minister has referred to the debate in the other place. My point of order is simple and clear. At the moment, we have not had an opportunity to study the arguments by which the other place came to its decision. It makes a total mockery of the democratic process that we should be debating these matters when we are not in a position to know why their Lordships came to the decision that they did, and I am asking you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, to rule on that.

Mr. Deputy Speaker:

The House was fully aware of the situation when it decided to debate the amendments forthwith. Mr. MacGregor.

Mr. Deputy speaker:

Order. The House must now settle down and listen to the Secretary of State and any other hon. Member who is called to speak.

Photo of Mr John MacGregor Mr John MacGregor Chair, Privileges Committee, The Secretary of State for Transport, Chair, Privileges Committee

My right hon. Friend the Leader of the House made it clear that we might be considering Lords amendments this week when he made his business statement. This is a perfectly normal procedure at this stage of the Parliament. [Interruption.] If the hon. Member for Walsall, North (Mr. Winnick) wants to hear the arguments and what this is about, he should listen, instead of Labour Members making that great noise which shows their hypocrisy and how little they care about the arguments. I shall repeat what the amendment does as I am sure that Labour Members and many of my hon. Friends did not hear because of the noise.

Two of our amendments—the third amendment is closely linked to them—relate to the eligibility of a British Rail bid. Under the amendments, the decision of the franchising director as to whether a British Rail bid should be eligible will be made at the time of awarding the franchise, rather than at the time of the invitation to tender, as we proposed. Last night, we had a lengthy debate on this issue.

I shall briefly explain what the effect of the amendments will be. First, most, if not all, management buy-outs will be totally discouraged from bidding for the franchise. If management buy-outs do not know whether British Rail will be made ineligible until after the invitation to tender and after the whole process, they will feel exactly as we agreed last night—that they are being squeezed out and wholly discouraged, and therefore will not incur the expense and the effort to make the bid in the first place.

Secondly, other bidders whom we talked about last night and whom we wish to see bid will be deterred. Hence it will undermine one of the whole purposes of the franchise system and the bidding process, which is to encourage competition for franchises. It will not help—indeed, it will create chaos and confusion. It will not help with the argument that I raised last night—that the amendment from the other place, which we addressed yesterday, will mean that in each individual franchise, the people who may be framing the British Rail bid will be the ones who also wanted to do a management buy-out. As I spelt out yesterday, that is a recipe for total chaos and confusion. It will also mean that there will be a great deal of unnecessary cost.

Our amendment is preferable because it avoids all the problems; it encourages management buy-outs and other bidders; it encourages competition for the franchises and it avoids the confusion and unworkability. Indeed, what we now face would work out in practice as simply having a single monopoly supplier of the services again. The Bill is designed to prevent the dominant single supplier in the public sector.

Photo of Mr John MacGregor Mr John MacGregor Chair, Privileges Committee, The Secretary of State for Transport, Chair, Privileges Committee

I will not give way, because the debate is a short one.

I must make the point that we have debated these issues on many occasions in the House. We debated them for two hours yesterday, although the vast majority of Labour Members were not present to hear the arguments. We have given much more time to these issues and debated them at greater length than did the other place. Fundamentally, this means that we will not get all the changes and benefits of competition that we are seeing in the former nationalised industries.

Yesterday, some of my hon. Friends pointed out that we were debating this Bill at a time when we saw yet another benefit of privatisation with the reduction in British Telecom prices that had just been announced. We would not get that benefit.

As I explained yesterday, our amendment will still enable British Rail to bid in defined circumstances. I do not need to repeat the arguments but that is one of the big changes that we accepted on the original Peyton amendment. Last night, I argued that, for a variety of reasons, it would be unworkable and would not meet our objectives. That will remain the position with the amendment that has come back from the other place.

The third amendment is closely linked to the other two. It has two main effects—it will delete the promotion of competition for franchises from the criteria which the franchising director must take into account, and insert instead a requirement that the transfer of services to the private sector should not significantly increase the costs of the franchising director. [Interruption.] The reaction of Labour Members shows the frivolity with which they approach these matters. It is clear that they do not care and they are not serious.

The amendment has one bad effect and is unnecessary. The bad effect is that it removes the objective of promoting competition for franchises. Since that objective is one of the basic purposes of the reforms that we are undertaking, it cannot be right that we should ask the House to remove it.

The second point is that the amendment argues the case that an award should not significantly increase the cost to the franchising director. That is unnecessary, because the process that we have made clear—the process that is involved in our proposals, which I have talked about on many occasions—means that the franchising director will take into account the costs in any awards that he makes, not least because he will have as his benchmark the historic track record of the existing passenger franchise, the new shadow franchise, when he examines the bids.—[Interruption.]] I am explaining precisely what it is about so that everyone understands. If the franchising director decides that the bids are not viable or competitive, or involve increased costs, he will not award any franchise and it will return to the existing British Rail operation.

In addition, value for money, which the amendment is supposed to be about, is already one of the franchising director's objectives. So I have explained clearly and precisely that we object to the amendments for the very reasons that, last night, the House passed our amendment by a substantial majority. That is why I invite the House to disagree with the Lords in the said amendment.

Photo of John Prescott John Prescott Shadow Secretary of State, Member, Labour Party National Executive Committee, Shadow Secretary of State for Employment

This controversial Railways Bill, this arrogant Government and this incompetent Secretary of State for Transport have reduced Parliament to a running farce today. It started because the Secretary of State decided to deny this House and the other place the right to debate by introducing a guillotine in the way that he did.

The Government sought a cheap advantage by trying to rush the Bill through the House before proper debate could take place. That is the same charge that we lay against the Lords, who had to discuss Government amendments which were passed only last night and communicated by a reasons committee, of which I am member, which was set up at 2.30 in the Morning. I believe that I am still a member of that committee, which will have to meet again after this debate to tell the other place why we agree or disagree with their amendment. I resign from that committee. I cannot sit on it with any sense of democratic participation in view of the mockery of democracy that has been brought about by the Secretary of State. This is possibly my last appearance as the Opposition spokesman on transport.

Since 1979, there have been 14 Secretaries of State for Transport. I have dealt with three of them, and this Secretary of State is by far the worst. He treats the House with utter contempt. The last three lasted only 18 months, and I believe that this month is this Secretary of State's 18th month. It is about time he went with the others.

The problem that the House faces today arises directly from the amendments and the guillotine procedure with which we were faced yesterday. The guillotine denies us proper and adequate debate on these essential matters. I remind those who attended yesterday's debate of the speech by the right hon. Member for Shropshire, North (Mr. Biffen) about the guillotine procedure. As he is an ex-Leader of the House, we all listen carefully to what he says. He said: no House of Commons having even a modest regard for the self-respect of legislators would be presenting them with such an extensive .…. Bill to be dispatched in two days."—[Official Report, 2 November 1993; Vol. 231, c. 187.] 9 pm

That is at the heart of the problem that we face today. The problem in the House of Lords is exactly the same. This Government have deployed all the political trickery in the book to seek a political advantage to force down the throats of both Houses a view that they cannot substantiate in debate. They can enforce their view only by means of a guillotine and because of some Members who do not understand what they are doing. That has always characterised this debate. Yesterday my right hon. Friend the Member for Derby, South (Mrs. Beckett) described that, properly, as "a constitutional outrage". Any impartial person watching our debates on television might think that that is what is happening.

The argument to be placed against the Government is not only that they are a Government of cheats, but that they treat the House with utter contempt. The dates of our proceedings show that. Monday was a classic example. When the Government tabled a 10 o'clock business motion, it was reasonable to assume that the debate would be allowed to continue beyond 10 o'clock. The Government tabled that motion to lull the House into a false sense of security, thinking that there would be long enough to debate these matters, only to move a motion at 10 o'clock to close the debate and announce a guillotine. It was all to ensure that the debate would not centre on an examination of the real issues. The same procedures were adopted in the other place when a matter concerning these amendments was discussed, of which we have no record because it took place only hours ago.

The Secretary of State will know that, in the previous guillotined debate, we made great play of the argument of the memorandum of understanding concerning pensioners. The Government signed it prior to the other place voting on pensions, in the belief that the memorandum of understanding meant what the Government said it meant. The Government abrogated their agreement on that, but sought and got the vote in the other place. They got that by trickery. That is what has characterised the whole approach of the Government during these debates.

One of the Lords amendments changes a decision agreed by this House last night. I should remind hon. Members who have not attended our debates on these issues, as the Secretary of State has attempted to, what the issue is about. It is about the right of British Rail to bid for the franchise under the Bill's provisions for the privatisation of British Rail. There were some rebels—perhaps I should not use that word, because they did not materialise. If anybody thought that those amendments meant anything, they would buy anything.

When the Bill was first debated in the House, the Government did not believe that British Rail should have the right to bid for the franchise because, they said, it would blow a hole in the Bill. In other words, they did not want the most competent authority to bid for the facilities. The real intention of the Bill, which is at the heart of these amendments, is to allow the private sector to get its hands on the profitable bits of British Rail at the expense of taxpayers and rail travellers. So the House of Lords considered the matter and then restored British Rail's right to bid.

It is offensive for Ministers to talk about whether the other places gives proper consideration to legislation or whether it has the experience to do so. The two Tory Lords who have been leading the attack on this were both Secretaries of State for Transport in different Tory Governments. One was a chairman of British Rail. I can only assume that they must know what problems face a railway system. Both are Tories, and both have tremendous experience in government and in the management of the railway system. Both take the view that the Government's view is utter nonsense. Lord Peyton described it as "not common sense".

Yesterday, the Government sought to provide a right for British Rail to bid for the franchise, and Back Bencthers agreed. Lord Peyton saw that as a small step forward. It was made clear that the person who was to award! the contract was to ensure that, if a private bidder bid against British Rail, even if his bid cost more, priority must be given to that private bidder, fixing the market, as the Government have done with the coal industry, to ensure that the private sector wins the argument.

The Lords could not accept that; they rejected it. It is a reasonable proposition to reject, and that is precisely what they did. They have told the House that it is utter nonsense. They have now told us that they do not reject it totally. They welcome the Government's move towards some form of privatisation—something that Opposition Members totally reject—but they have told the Government that, if British Rail is now allowed to bid, it should be allowed to make a bid up to the time of award.

The Lords have also made it clear that they are concerned from our debates that, if a private sector bid comes along that is more costly than the British Rail bid, the taxpayer might get conned. Why does the Secretary of State want an extra £2 billion from the Treasury if it is not plunder to put in the pockets of the private sector to bid?

In Sweden, the national operator has been able to provide a better service, and the franchise director has been able to give it the award. The Secretary of State fears that that will happen here. The Lords amendments before us say, "You will not give the franchise to a private sector bidder if its bid is substantially greater than the British Rail bid." They are even giving a margin of edge to the private sector. They are trying to protect, however, the pockets of the taxpayers. The House of Lords defended the taxpayers when the Government had already given up.

Apparently, Lord Peyton and others do not understand that the purpose of privatisation is to take money out of public funds and put it in the pockets of private industry. That is precisely what it is all about. The Lords have said that they cannot accept that proposition; neither can Members of this House.

The Government say that they stand for employee and management buy-out bids. The real reason is that the 50 private companies that were said to want to bid have not materialised; they have vanished. They have considered the problems and they are scared of what is likely to happen. In desperation, the Government now want to fix it so that a few managers can get into the market and bid against British Rail. That will cause confusion in the British Rail system and conflict in the management, who will divert their energies from running a railway system into making competing bids in the name of privatisation. That is not the way to run a railway system.

The Lords amendment is right. We disagree about the principle of privatisation, but they are trying to limit the damage and protect the interests of the taxpayer. One would have thought that the Secretary of State and Conservative Members would have been worried, but no; they will troop into those Lobbies again today to tell the House of Lords that they totally reject their amendment.

That is the issue. It is a matter of substance. Tonight we are debating the credibility of the Secretary of State, the arrogance of the Government and an affront to democracy. That is why we shall oppose the Government's amendment tonight.

Photo of Mr David Mitchell Mr David Mitchell , North West Hampshire

The Lords amendment is a thinly veiled attempt by Lord Peyton to destroy the Government's rail privatisation measure in its entirety. Successful franchising is an essential part of the Bill. Railtrack will remain in the public sector. All of the system that is not franchised will remain in the public sector. It is on the franchising front only that the private sector becomes involved. Therefore, the benefits of this massive Bill rely on the success of franchising.

Franchising will bring three benefits to the public: first culture, secondly competition and thirdly cash. By "culture", I mean the interjection of the enterprise culture that has been so desperately missing from British Rail's activities, and the wind of change that that will bring to the whole of the enterprise. By "competition", I mean that there will be astonishment when several bidders fight each other for the minimum amount of subsidy that they require to operate the service. That experience has been offered elsewhere in the transport world and will undoubtedly repeat itself if we are successful in enacting the Bill.

The third benefit is cash to get rid of the Treasury's dead hand and enable those people to go to the markets for money and increase their investment in a way which the Treasury would never permit. Those benefits would be denied if the Lords amendments were accepted and the benefits of franchising were taken away.

Bids for franchises will come from four main sources: management buy-outs; international rail engineering companies; existing transport companies such as P and 0 and Virgin; and City-backed entrepreneurs. None of those would bid if the amendments were accepted, because the amendments would destroy effective bidding by the private sector, which would have to bid against British Rail's unfettered right to bid. Only once that had happened would the franchise director assess the bids and question whether British Rail's bid should be barred.

On that basis, there would be no bids, because there would be no level playing field. Bidders would be scared off by British Rail's financial muscle, the fear of deliberate artificial cross-subsidisation, the knowledge that British Rail would not know whether it was cross-subsidising, and British Rail's access to cheap public money, which would not be available to other franchise bidders.

The amendments would put a tourniquet around the throats of managers considering a bid. None of them would dare to bid against his employer, knowing that afterwards he might lose his job and that his job would be on the line the whole time that he was preparing his bid.

Will my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State be wary of amendments that have obviously been drafted by British Rail's lawyers for British Rail's benefit and sponsored in the Lords by past British Rail management? I go further and say that it is improper for British Rail to use public money to campaign against a Government programme approved by the electors.

Photo of Hugh Bayley Hugh Bayley , City of York

The Secretary of State's speech contained three fatal errors. First, he said that, because we have spent hundreds of hours debating this Bill, we need not debate it any longer. But we have never debated this proposal from the Lords. It has never come before either House until today.

Secondly, the amendment allows the franchising director to rule out absolutely any BR bid unless it is substantially cheaper than private sector bids. What possible objection could there be to that?

Thirdly, he said that there would be a conflict of interests if BR managers put together a management buy-out bid in competition with BR, when BR were also bidding. But a conflict of interests will exist if those managers challenge their company by submitting an alternative bid while remaining in the company. If there is to be a level playing field, private sector firms will have to bid from outside BR. The managers who want to opt out of BR should prepare their bids from outside and leave BR free of interference from outsiders to put together its own bid.

The Government intend to vote down the Lords amendment for just one reason: they are afraid of the competition that BR would bring. They are afraid that, if BR is allowed to bid, it will provide better and cheaper services for the public. They are determined to destroy that possibility by means of their privatisation measure.

Photo of Mr Tim Rathbone Mr Tim Rathbone , Lewes

The opening speech of the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, East (Mr. Prescott) slid into personal invective, which is the last resort of anyone without a rational argument on which to rely. If we needed further confirmation of the need for that guillotine motion, which I found unfortunate, the atrocious behaviour of Opposition Members provides it.

We must remind ourselves and the other place that yesterday's House of Commons majority of 34 confirmed the improvement that has been made to the Bill throughout its consideration on the Floor of the House of Commons, in Committee and in reaction to the previous set of Lords amendments.

The other place, however, has clearly misunderstood those changes—perhaps because it did not have time to consider them. I hope that it is considering them now. Certainly it was not given time to debate them, in contrast with the time allowed for discussion of the amendments tabled by my right hon. Friend and his colleagues.

The Lords amendment undercuts the whole principle of the level playing field to which numerous speakers on both sides of the House referred in yesterday's debate. It also undercuts true competition between the franchises. Such competition must be in the interests of more efficient rail services, which are more cost-effective for the taxpayer.

9.15 pm

I believe that a misunderstanding existed in all their Lordships' minds when they voted last night. That was confirmed by the comment made by Lord Marsh in a broadcast at 6 o'clock this evening. I heard what he said, and I was not relying on annunciator screens or television sets—I was there when he said it. He said that, under the House of Commons amendment, the SNCF, the German Bundesbahn or any other foreign railway could bid for a franchise while British Rail could not, but that is not true. The whole point of the amendments that we discussed yesterday was that British Rail would be allowed to bid, except—

Several hon. Members:


Photo of Mr Tim Rathbone Mr Tim Rathbone , Lewes

No, I will not give way. I hope that other hon. Members will have a chance to speak later.

British Rail will have a chance to bid, except when the franchising director believes that that is not in the interest of competition. That is the measure that we passed yesterday, and that is what went down the Corridor earlier today.

I believe that Ministers and the House considered the so-called Peyton amendments, as their Lordships wanted them to do. They concluded that those amendments themselves required amendment, made the necessary changes, and passed them back to their Lordships for consideration. I believe that we should pass them back yet again in a few moments' time.

Photo of Nick Harvey Nick Harvey Shadow Spokesperson (Transport)

The Government face this problem for the first time in 16 years entirely because of their own incompetence and obstinacy. Their handling of the Bill has been deplorable throughout its passage. They have tabled so many amendments to their own amendments—tabling them in Committee when the ink was hardly wet on the first lot—that they have almost used up an entire Amazonian rain forest.

There was a time when I believed that, however misguided and inherently evil Conservative Members might be, they at least understood how to run things, and were technically competent. I have come to realise that I completely misjudged them. They stand before the country exposed as the shambolic rabble that they undoubtedly are.

When the public learn of this evening's events, and the passage of this measure from one end of the corridor to the other, they will be in no doubt about who is speaking for the nation. Members of the other place come in without deferring to the Whips, and with no hope of promotion; they do not even need gongs, because most already have them. We have been reduced to observing the spectacle of those people speaking for the nation, not those who speak in this Chamber—the men of straw on the Conservative Benches who depend on the Whips for their prospects of promotion and patronage.

That is the position to which we have been reduced by the Government's shambolic conduct and a ridiculous measure which successive Secretaries of State for Transport have thought better than to introduce. The present Secretary of State, however, has insisted on pushing it through, at a deplorable cost to democracy and to his own electoral fortune. The Government will pay for that at the ballot box.

Photo of Mr Brian Wilson Mr Brian Wilson , Cunninghame North

ninghame, North): I must make one small correction before I proceed, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I received the news of the Government's defeat; this afternoon, and I raised a point of order with Madam Speaker on the fact that the defeat had been on the pensions issue. Sadly, the defeat was not on the pensions issue, but on the franchise issue. I apologise for the fact that I inadvertently misled Madam Speaker this afternoon. That was the first time in the process of the Bill that I had a wrong piece of information. I think the whole of the British press were surprised when [said that the Government had been defeated on pensions rather than the franchises.

It was a glorious victory, however, which has thrown the Bill into total chaos and confusion and led to tonight's debate. It is the Secretary of State who has created the chaos and confusion—

Photo of Mr Brian Wilson Mr Brian Wilson , Cunninghame North

Certainly not. When the hon. Gentleman has the guts to vote for the pensioners in the Eastleigh works, I will give way to him.

Today's events represent the final humiliation for the Bill and for the Secretary of State and confirmation of the reality that there is no majority for the Bill in the country, where polls have revealed that opposition to it stands at 83 per cent. There is no majority for the Bill in the leader columns of the Tory press or in Tory local authorities—even though there are not many of those left—and there is no majority for it among British Rail managers, 90 per cent. of whom have expressed their opposition to it, contrary to the misrepresentation by the Secretary of State.

What we have seen tonight has been a constitutional outrage—I do not know the terminology used on these occasions—and a performance typical and worthy of the Government. Not only has the House and its right to debate been trampled on; at the same time, the right to debate and consider legislation along the Corridor have been trampled on here. Some hon. Members who have been here for 30 years say that they have never seen anything like it; I have heard some Lords say that they have been in the other place for 70 years and never seen anything like it.

The Secretary of State again adduces the interests of railway managers. He insists that they want to run private railways, in spite of the arguments, the statistics and the evidence of a lack of positive support for that. One of the greatest wrongs committed by the Secretary of State is to misrepresent the railway managers. He is driving them into a position of becoming involved in buy-out bids, forcing them into taking out mortgages on their homes to take financial risks. He does not even have the guts to admit that he is doing that for political reasons. He is persistently taking in vain the names of people who, by statute and regulation, he forbids to answer back.

In the weeks ahead, I challenge the Secretary of State to tell the chairman of British Rail that all rail managers are to be free to speak openly about their views on this legislation and the appropriateness of management buy-outs. He will find that the 90 per cent. who have told the survey that they are opposed to rail privatisation will come to the fore. It is a disgrace to drive people into management buy-outs as a way of protecting their employment, and then to persist in the falsehood that the majority are anxious to do that.

There are many Tory voters among the railway managers, but the Opposition will continue to speak for the 90 per cent. of them who do not want anything to do with these buy-outs. The Government can speak for the 10 per cent. who do. We shall speak for the 90 per cent. of railway managers who want to continue to run a safe, integrated public railway—many of whom are to be denied the right to do so.

The hon. Member for Lewes (Mr. Rathbone) seemed, in his attempt to rationalise his own behaviour, under a serious misapprehension about what is in the Bill. Let there be no doubt: the state railways of Germany, France, Ireland and other countries will be in a position superior to that of British Rail if they choose to bid for BR franchises. None of those state railways will be subject to the four conditions that can be used by the franchise director to preclude British Rail involvement. [HON. MEMBERS: "Wrong."] I repeat that none of them will be subject to the conditions that can be used under the Secretary of State's direction to preclude BR's involvement.

There is a genuine question of competition at stake. No longer can Tory Ministers make up the rules as they go along. At some point they must answer to the laws of competition within a European context. One of the fixes in which the Government are engaging to try to encourage what remnant of private interest there may be is thus in contravention of European law—

Photo of Mr Tim Rathbone Mr Tim Rathbone , Lewes

The hon. Gentleman does not understand the matter any better than the Lords do. The Bill will say that British Rail can enter into these franchises; it is only when there is no competition that the franchise director steps in.

Photo of Mr Brian Wilson Mr Brian Wilson , Cunninghame North

I think that Lord Peyton and Lord Marsh, not to mention hon. Members here who understand the Bill, have nothing to gain and nothing to hide—unlike those who engaged in a rebellion that collapsed before extracting a price.

The new Lords amendment offered the genuine compromise which the hon. Member for Lewes and others like him failed to obtain. I do not like the amendment, in the sense that British Rail could still be the lowest bidder but be excluded from a franchise by the director. At least that represented a major advance, however, in that British Rail would have a right to bid in every instance. Under what the Government continue to propose, BR will often be excluded—not because it is not good enough, but because Ministers know that if it is allowed to bid it will succeed.

The arguments will go on outside this House. The Government have lost the argument. They have lost their dignity and their credibility on this Bill. Today we read of the latest attempt to win over public support for the Bill. We are told that the Department of Transport plans to send a leaflet to every house in the country explaining the benefits of rail privatisation. Millions of pounds that could be used to run trains will be spent on a propaganda battle that the Government have already lost. The only result could be another threat to rail traffic: leaflets on the track.

The hon. Member for Hampshire, North-West (Sir D. Mitchell) spoke of a tourniquet around the throats of railway managers who want to bid. I have always understood that the purpose of a tourniquet is to stop bleeding and save lives. Rather, this is a knife in the back of British Rail, and the Government have placed it there tonight.

The debate goes on. It is understood in the country that rail privatisation equals higher fares, fewer services, and the loss of routes, of network benefits and of everything about the railway system that is widely understood in this country. The has-beens and never-weres on the Tory Benches can vote for the Government tonight and overturn the Lords amendment, but they will have to live with the consequences of their actions. Those consequences will be seen next year in the local government and European elections—and ultimately in the general election campaign, in which the future of the railways will play a major part.

Conservative Members can vote down the Lords amendment, but they cannot defeat the arguments. They have lost those arguments in the House. In the country, rail privatisation is discredited. This is the last hurrah for the Railways Bill. The battle goes on in the country from now on.

Photo of Mr Roger Freeman Mr Roger Freeman , Kettering

I am happy to live with the consequences of the Railways Act, as it will become. I firmly believe, as does my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, that it will improve the quality of rail services, and that is the object of the exercise. Interestingly enough, tonight we have heard no reference whatsoever to passengers.

The purpose of the Bill is to improve the quality of service to passengers. It is not about preserving monopolies or preserving the rights of trade unions; it is about improving service to passengers.

The hon. Member for Cunninghame, North (Mr. Wilson) referred to a matter that was raised in another place. Let me deal with it now. There is no question of printing 20 million leaflets to distribute to every household in the country. Hon. Members should not believe what they read in The Guardian; there are no such plans.

The hon. Member for York (Mr. Bayley) said that we cannot substantiate in debate our arguments. Not only have we had 190 hours of debate, but we have dealt with the issues at great length. We spent two and a half hours on amendment No. 31 and we won by a majority of 34. We debated specific issues concerning the responsibility of the franchising director. [Interruption.] Yes, we did. Perhaps the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, North (Ms Walley) was not listening to the debate.

9.30 pm

We discussed when the franchising director would exercise his responsibilities under clause 22 in order to disqualify British Rail from bidding in certain circumstances.

I speak for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Transport—[Interruption.] I am trying to make a serious point.

In the Bill that we are considering tonight and when it receives Royal Assent, British Rail will be able to bid. My right hon. Friend and I firmly believe that British Rail—

Photo of Mr Roger Freeman Mr Roger Freeman , Kettering

No. I was given only seven minutes and I must make my points.

British Rail will be allowed to bid in certain circumstances and it will undoubtedly win franchises. That was the intention of the House of Lords. We responded constructively and my right hon. Friend and I believe that that will happen.

Clause 22 gives the franchising director, at his own discretion, the right to determine, at the time of issuing the invitation to bid, whether British Rail is to be allowed to be one of those bidders.

The criteria for deciding whether British Rail should bid are clear. The franchising director has to decide whether allowing British Rail to bid would not promote the interests of management-employee buy-out bids that might confound new entry to the railway industry and would not in any way reduce the dominance of one supplier to the railway industry. That is what clause 22 said.

The Lords amendment that deletes "issue invitations to tender" and inserts "award a franchise" is wrong. We debated it at great length and there are two consequences that I believe the House will understand when it votes in a few minutes' time and use as reasons for rejecting the Lords amendments.

First, if the franchising director is allowed to determine that British Rail should not be a bidder at the time of awarding the franchise, that puts British Rail management in a hopeless position. Are they preparing a bid themselves —a management and employee buy-out bid—or are they preparing a bid for British Rail corporate? It is a hopeless position and the direct consequence of the Lords amendments would be to prevent management-employee bids either being prepared or bidding.

Photo of Mr Roger Freeman Mr Roger Freeman , Kettering

No. Let me deal with the second consequence of the Lords amendments which we reject.

Photo of Mr Derek Enright Mr Derek Enright , Hemsworth

Get on to the passengers.

Photo of Mr Roger Freeman Mr Roger Freeman , Kettering

The hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, East (Mr. Prescott) did not refer to passengers at all. [Interruption.] No, he did not. We are motivated by one clear aim—to improve the quality of service for the passengers.

The second reason why we must reject the Lords amendments is that, if the franchising director allows British Rail to prepare bids in all circumstances and then decides to disqualify it at the time of awarding the franchise—[Interruption.] I am speaking from the heart and the head also.

If we allow the franchising director to disqualify British Rail only at the final moment, at the award of the franchise, that would put off private sector bidders. They would undoubtedly be deterred by the cost and expense of preparing a bid, because they would face a state-owned company that is at present a monopoly. The net effect of the Lords amendment would be to deny the principal purpose of the Bill, which is to encourage and promote private sector interest in running passenger railways. That is what is in the Bill, and it is the prime purpose of our reforms—to introduce the benefits of additional capital and innovation.

The Opposition's real motivation tonight is nothing to do with the amendment; they are determined to preserve British Rail's monopoly. The hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, East threatened to sack British Rail managers who participated in the bidding process, and the hon. Member for Cunninghame, North said that he would renationalise the rail industry. The Opposition are determined to do one thing, and the one thing alone—to preserve British Rail's monopoly. But we are interested in promoting the interests of passengers. I commend what my right hon. Friend said, and urge the House to reject the Lords amendment.

Question put, That this House doth disagree with the Lords in the said amendment:—

The House proceeded to a Division:

Mr. Deputy Speaker:

Order. There appears to be some delay in the Lobby. Will the Serjeant at Arms please investigate?

Photo of Mr Bob Dunn Mr Bob Dunn , Dartford

(seated and covered): On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. If this practice of delay in the No Lobby continues, can those responsible be named?

The House having divided: Ayes 301, Noes 260.

Division No. 395][9.35 pm
Ainsworth, Peter (East Surrey)Banks, Robert (Harrogate)
Aitken, JonathanBates, Michael
Alexander, RichardBatiste, Spencer
Alison, Rt Hon Michael (Selby)Beggs, Roy
Allason, Rupert (Torbay)Bellingham, Henry
Amess, DavidBendall, Vivian
Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham)Beresford, Sir Paul
Arnold, Sir Thomas (Hazel Grv)Biffen, Rt Hon John
Ashby, DavidBlackburn, Dr John G.
Aspinwall, JackBonsor, Sir Nicholas
Atkins, RobertBooth, Hartley
Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)Boswell, Tim
Baker, Rt Hon K. (Mole Valley)Bottomley, Peter (Eltham)
Baker, Nicholas (Dorset North)Bottomley, Rt Hon Virginia
Baldry, TonyBowden, Andrew
Banks, Matthew (Southport)Bowis, John
Boyson, Rt Hon Sir RhodesGrylls, Sir Michael
Brandreth, GylesGummer, Rt Hon John Selwyn
Brazier, JulianHague, William
Bright, GrahamHamilton, Rt Hon Archie (Epsom)
Brooke, Rt Hon PeterHamilton, Neil (Tatton)
Brown, M. (Brigg & Cl'thorpes)Hanley, Jeremy
Browning, Mrs. AngelaHannam, Sir John
Bruce, lan (S Dorset)Hargreaves, Andrew
Budgen, NicholasHarris, David
Burns, SimonHaselhurst, Alan
Burt, AlistairHawkins, Nick
Butler, PeterHawksley, Warren
Carlisle, John (Luton North)Hayes, Jerry
Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln)Heald, Oliver
Carrington, MatthewHeathcoat-Amory, David
Cash, WilliamHendry, Charles
Channon, Rt Hon PaulHeseltine, Rt Hon Michael
Chapman, SydneyHiggins, Rt Hon Sir Terence L.
Clappison, JamesHill, James (Southampton Test)
Clarke, Rt Hon Kenneth (Ruclif)Hogg, Rt Hon Douglas (G'tham)
Clifton-Brown, GeoffreyHoram, John
Coe, SebastianHordern, Rt Hon Sir Peter
Colvin, MichaelHoward, Rt Hon Michael
Congdon, DavidHowarth, Alan (Strat'rd-on-A)
Conway, DerekHunt, Rt Hon David (Wirral W)
Coombs, Anthony (Wyre For'st)Hunt, Sir John (Ravensbourne)
Coombs, Simon (Swindon)Hunter, Andrew
Cope, Rt Hon Sir JohnHurd, Rt Hon Douglas
Cormack, PatrickJack, Michael
Couchman, JamesJackson, Robert (Wantage)
Cran, JamesJenkin, Bernard
Currie, Mrs Edwina (S D'by'ire)Jessel, Toby
Curry, David (Skipton & Ripon)Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey
Davies, Quentin (Stamford)Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N)
Davis, David (Boothferry)Jones, Robert B. (W Hertfdshr)
Deva, Nirj JosephJopling, Rt Hon Michael
Devlin, TimKellett-Bowman, Dame Elaine
Dicks, TerryKey, Robert
Dorrell, StephenKilfedder, Sir James
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord JamesKing, Rt Hon Tom
Dover, DenKirkhope, Timothy
Duncan, AlanKnapman, Roger
Duncan-Smith, lainKnight, Mrs Angela (Erewash)
Dunn, BobKnight, Greg (Derby N)
Durant, Sir AnthonyKnight, Dame Jill (Bir'm E'st'n)
Elletson, HaroldKnox, Sir David
Evans, David (Welwyn Hatfield)Kynoch, George (Kincardine)
Evans, Jonathan (Brecon)Lait, Mrs Jacqui
Evans, Nigel (Ribble Valley)Lamont, Rt Hon Norman
Evans, Roger (Monmouth)Lang, Rt Hon Ian
Evennett, DavidLawrence, Sir Ivan
Faber, DavidLegg, Barry
Fabricant, MichaelLeigh, Edward
Fairbairn, Sir NicholasLennox-Boyd, Mark
Fenner, Dame PeggyLester, Jim (Broxtowe)
Field, Barry (Isle of Wight)Lidington, David
Fishburn, DudleyLightbown, David
Forman, NigelLilley, Rt Hon Peter
Forsyth, Michael (Stirling)Lloyd, Peter (Fareham)
Forth, EricLord, Michael
Fowler, Rt Hon Sir NormanLuff, Peter
Fox, Dr Liam (Woodspring)Lyell, Rt Hon Sir Nicholas
Fox, Sir Marcus (Shipley)MacGregor, Rt Hon John
Freeman, Rt Hon RogerMacKay, Andrew
French, DouglasMaclean, David
Fry, PeterMcLoughlin, Patrick
Gale, RogerMcNair-Wilson, Sir Patrick
Gallie, PhilMadel, David
Gardiner, Sir GeorgeMaitland, Lady Olga
Garel-Jones, Rt Hon TristanMajor, Rt Hon John
Garnier, EdwardMalone, Gerald
Gill, ChristopherMans, Keith
Goodlad, Rt Hon AlastairMartand, Paul
Goodson-Wickes, Dr CharlesMarlow, Tony
Gorman, Mrs TeresaMarshall, John (Hendon S)
Gorst, JohnMarshall, Sir Michael (Arundel)
Grant, Sir A. (Cambs SW)Martin, David (Portsmouth S)
Greenway, Harry (Ealing N)Mates, Michael
Greenway, John (Ryedale)Mawhinney, Dr Brian
Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth, N)Mayhew, Rt Hon Sir Patrick
Mellor, Rt Hon DavidSpicer, Sir James (W Dorset)
Merchant, PiersSpicer, Michael (S Worcs)
Milligan, StephenSpink, Dr Robert
Mills, lainSpring, Richard
Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling)Sproat, lain
Mitchell, Sir David (Hants NW)Squire, Robin (Hornchurch)
Moate, Sir RogerStanley, Rt Hon Sir John
Montgomery, Sir FergusSteen, Anthony
Moss, MalcolmStephen, Michael
Needham, RichardStern, Michael
Nelson, AnthonyStewart, Allan
Neubert, Sir MichaelStreeter, Gary
Newton, Rt Hon TonySumberg, David
Nicholls, PatrickSweeney, Walter
Nicholson, David (Taunton)Sykes, John
Nicholson, Emma (Devon West)Tapsell, Sir Peter
Norris, SteveTaylor, lan (Esher)
Onslow, Rt Hon Sir CranleyTaylor, Rt Hon John D. (Strgfd)
Oppenheim, PhillipTaylor, John M. (Solihull)
Ottaway, RichardTaylor, Sir Teddy (Southend, E)
Page, RichardTemple-Morris, Peter
Paice, JamesThomason, Roy
Patnick, IrvineThompson, Sir Donald (C'er V)
Pattie, Rt Hon Sir GeoffreyThompson, Patrick (Norwich N)
Pawsey, JamesThurnham, Peter
Peacock, Mrs ElizabethTownend, John (Bridlington)
Pickles, EricTownsend, Cyril D. (Bexl'yh'th)
Porter, David (Waveney)Tracey, Richard
Portillo, Rt Hon MichaelTredinnick, David
Powell, William (Corby)Trend, Michael
Rathbone, TimTrotter, Neville
Redwood, Rt Hon JohnTwinn, Dr lan
Renton, Rt Hon TimVaughan, Sir Gerard
Richards, RodViggers, Peter
Riddick, GrahamWaldegrave, Rt Hon William
Rifkind, Rt Hon. MalcolmWalker, Bill (N Tayside)
Robathan, AndrewWaller, Gary
Roberts, Rt Hon Sir WynWard, John
Robertson, Raymond (Ab'd'n S)Wardle, Charles (Bexhill)
Robinson, Mark (Somerton)Waterson, Nigel
Roe, Mrs Marion (Broxbourne)Watts, John
Rowe, Andrew (Mid Kent)Wheeler, Rt Hon Sir John
Rumbold, Rt Hon Dame AngelaWhitney, Ray
Ryder, Rt Hon RichardWhittingdale, John
Sackville, TomWiddecombe, Ann
Sainsbury, Rt Hon TimWilkinson, John
Scott, Rt Hon NicholasWilletts, David
Shaw, David (Dover)Wilshire, David
Shaw, Sir Giles (Pudsey)Wolfson, Mark
Shephard, Rt Hon GillianWood, Timothy
Shepherd, Colin (Hereford)Yeo, Tim
Shersby, MichaelYoung, Rt Hon Sir George
Sims, Roger
Skeet, Sir TrevorTellers for the Ayes:
Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield)Mr. Robert G. Hughes and
Soames, NicholasMr. James Arbuthnot
Spencer, Sir Derek
Abbott, Ms DianeBennett, Andrew F.
Adams, Mrs IreneBenton, Joe
Ainger, NickBermingham, Gerald
Ainsworth, Robert (Cov'try NE)Berry, Dr. Roger
Allen, GrahamBetts, Clive
Alton, DavidBlair, Tony
Anderson, Donald (Swansea E)Blunkett, David
Anderson, Ms Janet (Ros'dale)Boateng, Paul
Armstrong, HilaryBradley, Keith
Ashdown, Rt Hon PaddyBray, Dr Jeremy
Ashton, JoeBrown, Gordon (Dunfermline E)
Austin-Walker, JohnBrown, N. (N'c'tle upon Tyne E)
Banks, Tony (Newham NW)Burden, Richard
Barnes, HarryByers, Stephen
Barron, KevinCallaghan, Jim
Battle, JohnCampbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)
Bayley, HughCampbell, Menzies (Fife NE)
Beckett, Rt Hon MargaretCampbell, Ronnie (Blyth V)
Beith, Rt Hon A. J.Campbell-Savours, D. N.
Bell, StuartCanavan, Dennis
Benn, Rt Hon TonyCann, Jamie
Carlile, Alexander (Montgomry)Hughes, Roy (Newport E)
Chisholm, MalcolmHughes, Simon (Southwark)
Clark, Dr David (South Shields)Hutton, John
Clarke, Eric (Midlothian)Jackson, Glenda (H'stead)
Clarke, Tom (Monklands W)Jackson, Helen (Shef'ld, H)
Clelland, DavidJamieson, David
Clwyd, Mrs AnnJanner, Greville
Coffey, AnnJones, Barry (Alyn and D'side)
Connarty, MichaelJones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C)
Cook, Frank (Stockton N)Jones, Lynne (B'ham S O)
Cook, Robin (Livingston)Jones, Martyn (Clwyd, SW)
Corbett, RobinJones, Nigel (Cheltenham)
Corbyn, JeremyJowell, Tessa
Corston, Ms JeanKaufman, Rt Hon Gerald
Cryer, BobKeen, Alan
Cummings, JohnKennedy, Jane (Lpool Brdgn)
Cunliffe, LawrenceKhabra, Piara S.
Cunningham, Jim (Covy SE)Kilfoyle, Peter
Cunningham, Rt Hon Dr JohnKinnock, Rt Hon Neil (Islwyn)
Dafis, CynogKirkwood, Archy
Darling, AlistairLeighton, Ron
Davidson, lanLestor, Joan (Eccles)
Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli)Lewis, Terry
Davies, Ron (Caerphilly)Livingstone, Ken
Davis, Terry (B'ham, H'dge H'l)Lloyd, Tony (Stretford)
Denham, JohnLlwyd, Elfyn
Dewar, DonaldLoyden, Eddie
Dixon, DonLynne, Ms Liz
Dobson, FrankMcAllion, John
Donohoe, Brian H.McAvoy, Thomas
Dowd, JimMcCrea, Rev William
Dunnachie, JimmyMacdonald, Calum
Dunwoody, Mrs GwynethMcFall, John
Eagle, Ms AngelaMcKelvey, William
Eastham, KenMackinlay, Andrew
Enright, DerekMcLeish, Henry
Etherington, BillMaclennan, Robert
Evans, John (St Helens N)McMaster, Gordon
Ewing, Mrs MargaretMcNamara, Kevin
Faulds, AndrewMcWilliam, John
Field, Frank (Birkenhead)Madden, Max
Fisher, MarkMaddock, Mrs Diana
Flynn, PaulMarek, Dr John
Foster, Rt Hon DerekMarshall, David (Shettleston)
Foster, Don (Bath)Marshall, Jim (Leicester, S)
Fraser, JohnMartin, Michael J. (Springburn)
Fyfe, MariaMartlew, Eric
Galloway, GeorgeMaxton, John
Gapes, MikeMeacher, Michael
Garrett, JohnMichael, Alun
Gerrard, NeilMichie, Bill (Sheffield Heeley)
Gilbert, Rt Hon Dr JohnMichie, Mrs Ray (Argyll Bute)
Godman, Dr Norman A.Milburn, Alan
Golding, Mrs LlinMiller, Andrew
Gordon, MildredMitchell, Austin (Gt Grimsby)
Gould, BryanMorgan, Rhodri
Graham, ThomasMoriey, Elliot
Grant, Bernie (Tottenham)Morris, Rt Hon A. (Wy'nshawe)
Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)Morris, Estelle (B'ham Yardley)
Grocott, BruceMorris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon)
Gunnell, JohnMowlam, Marjorie
Hain, PeterMudie, George
Hall, MikeMullin, Chris
Hanson, DavidMurphy, Paul
Harman, Ms HarrietO'Brien, Michael (N W'kshire)
Harvey, NickO'Hara, Edward
Hattersley, Rt Hon RoyOlner, William
Henderson, DougO'Neill, Martin
Heppell, JohnOrme, Rt Hon Stanley
Hill, Keith (Streatham)Paisley, Rev lan
Hinchliffe, DavidParry, Robert
Hoey, KatePatchett, Terry
Home Robertson, JohnPendry, Tom
Hood, JimmyPickthall, Colin
Hoon, GeoffreyPike, Peter L.
Howarth, George (Knowsley N)Pope, Greg
Howells, Dr. Kim (Pontypridd)Powell, Ray (Ogmore)
Hoyle, DougPrentice, Ms Bridget (Lew'm E)
Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)
Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N)Prescott, John
Primarolo, DawnSquire, Rachel (Dunfermline W)
Purchase, KenSteinberg, Gerry
Quin, Ms JoyceStevenson, George
Radice, GilesStott, Roger
Randall, StuartStrang, Dr. Gavin
Raynsford, NickStraw, Jack
Reid, Dr JohnTaylor, Mrs Ann (Dewsbury)
Rendel, DavidTaylor, Matthew (Truro)
Robertson, George (Hamilton)Tipping, Paddy
Robinson, Peter (Belfast E)Turner, Dennis
Roche, Mrs. BarbaraTyler, Paul
Rogers, AllanWallace, James
Rooker, JeffWalley, Joan
Rooney, TerryWardell, Gareth (Gower)
Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)Wareing, Robert N
Rowlands, TedWatson, Mike
Ruddock, JoanWelsh, Andrew
Salmond, AlexWicks, Malcolm
Sedgemore, BrianWilliams, Rt Hon Alan (Sw'n W)
Sheerman, BarryWilliams, Alan W (Carmarthen)
Sheldon, Rt Hon RobertWilson, Brian
Shore, Rt Hon PeterWinnick, David
Short, ClareWise, Audrey
Simpson, AlanWorthington, Tony
Skinner, DennisWray, Jimmy
Smith, Andrew (Oxford E)Wright, Dr Tony
Smith, Rt Hon John (M'kl'ds E)Young, David (Bolton SE)
Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent)
Snape, PeterTellers for the Noes:
Soley, CliveMr. Alan Meale and
Spearing, NigelMr. John Spellar

Question accordingly agreed to.

Lords amendment to a Commons amendment in Lieu of a Lords amendment: 1B, in subsection (4) line 6, leave out from ("for") to end of subsection and insert ("selection as the franchisee.").

Question put, That this House doth disagree with the Lords in the said amendment:—

The House divided: Ayes 289, Noes 261.

Division No. 396][9.35 pm
Ainsworth, Peter (East Surrey)Brown, M. (Brigg & Cl'thorpes)
Aitken, JonathanBrowning, Mrs. Angela
Alexander, RichardBruce, lan (S Dorset)
Alison, Rt Hon Michael (Selby)Budgen, Nicholas
Amess, DavidBurns, Simon
Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham)Burt, Alistair
Arnold, Sir Thomas (Hazel Grv)Butler, Peter
Ashby, DavidCarlisle, John (Luton North)
Aspinwall, JackCarlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln)
Atkins, RobertCarrington, Matthew
Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)Cash, William
Baker, Rt Hon K. (Mole Valley)Channon, Rt Hon Paul
Baker, Nicholas (Dorset North)Chapman, Sydney
Baldry, TonyClappison, James
Banks, Matthew (Southport)Clarke, Rt Hon Kenneth (Ruclif)
Banks, Robert (Harrogate)Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey
Bates, MichaelCoe, Sebastian
Batiste, SpencerColvin, Michael
Beggs, RoyCongdon, David
Bellingham, HenryConway, Derek
Bendall, VivianCoombs, Anthony (Wyre For'st)
Beresford, Sir PaulCoombs, Simon (Swindon)
Biffen, Rt Hon JohnCope, Rt Hon Sir John
Blackburn, Dr John G.Cormack, Patrick
Bonsor, Sir NicholasCouchman, James
Booth, HartleyCran, James
Boswell, TimCurrie, Mrs Edwina (S D'by'ire)
Bottomley, Peter (Eltham)Curry, David (Skipton & Ripon)
Bottomley, Rt Hon VirginiaDavies, Quentin (Stamford)
Bowden, AndrewDavis, David (Boothferry)
Bowis, JohnDeva, Nirj Joseph
Boyson, Rt Hon Sir RhodesDevlin, Tim
Brandreth, GylesDicks, Terry
Brazier, JulianDorrell, Stephen
Bright, GrahamDouglas-Hamilton, Lord James
Brooke, Rt Hon PeterDover, Den
Duncan, AlanKnapman, Roger
Duncan-Smith, lainKnight, Mrs Angela (Erewash)
Dunn, BobKnight, Greg (Derby N)
Durant, Sir AnthonyKnight, Dame Jill (Bir'm E'st'n)
Elletson, HaroldKnox, Sir David
Evans, David (Welwyn Hatfield)Kynoch, George (Kincardine)
Evans, Jonathan (Brecon)Lait, Mrs Jacqui
Evans, Nigel (Ribble Valley)Lamont, Rt Hon Norman
Evans, Roger (Monmouth)Lang, Rt Hon lan
Evennett, DavidLawrence, Sir Ivan
Faber, DavidLegg, Barry
Fabricant, MichaelLeigh, Edward
Fairbairn, Sir NicholasLennox-Boyd, Mark
Fenner, Dame PeggyLester, Jim (Broxtowe)
Field, Barry (Isle of Wight)Lidington, David
Fishburn, DudleyLightbown, David
Forman, NigelLilley, Rt Hon Peter
Forsyth, Michael (Stirling)Lloyd, Peter (Fareham)
Forth, EricLord, Michael
Fowler, Rt Hon Sir NormanLuff, Peter
Fox, Dr Liam (Woodspring)Lyell, Rt Hon Sir Nicholas
Fox, Sir Marcus (Shipley)MacGregor, Rt Hon John
Freeman, Rt Hon RogerMacKay, Andrew
French, DouglasMaclean, David
Fry, PeterMcLoughlin, Patrick
Gale, RogerMcNair-Wilson, Sir Patrick
Gallie, PhilMadel, David
Gardiner, Sir GeorgeMaitland, Lady Olga
Garel-Jones, Rt Hon TristanMajor, Rt Hon John
Garnier, EdwardMalone, Gerald
Gill, ChristopherMans, Keith
Goodlad, Rt Hon AlastairMarland, Paul
Goodson-Wickes, Dr CharlesMarlow, Tony
Gorman, Mrs TeresaMarshall, John (Hendon S)
Gorst, JohnMarshall, Sir Michael (Arundel)
Grant, Sir A. (Cambs SW)Martin, David (Portsmouth S)
Greenway, Harry (Ealing N)Mawhinney, Dr Brian
Greenway, John (Ryedale)Mayhew, Rt Hon Sir Patrick
Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth, N)Mellor, Rt Hon David
Grylls, Sir MichaelMerchant, Piers
Gummer, Rt Hon John SelwynMilligan, Stephen
Hague, WilliamMills, lain
Hamilton, Rt Hon Archie (Epsom)Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling)
Hamilton, Neil (Tatton)Mitchell, Sir David (Hants NW)
Hanley, JeremyMoate, Sir Roger
Hannam, Sir JohnMontgomery, Sir Fergus
Hargreaves, AndrewMoss, Malcolm
Harris, DavidNeedham, Richard
Haselhurst, AlanNelson, Anthony
Hawkins, NickNeubert, Sir Michael
Hawksley, WarrenNewton, Rt Hon Tony
Hayes, JerryNicholls, Patrick
Heald, OliverNicholson, David (Taunton)
Heathcoat-Amory, DavidNicholson, Emma (Devon West)
Hendry, CharlesNorris, Steve
Heseltine, Rt Hon MichaelOnslow, Rt Hon Sir Cranley
Higgins, Rt Hon Sir Terence L.Oppenheim, Phillip
Hill, James (Southampton Test)Ottaway, Richard
Hogg, Rt Hon Douglas (G'tham)Page, Richard
Horam, JohnPaice, James
Hordern, Rt Hon Sir PeterPatnick, Irvine
Howard, Rt Hon MichaelPattie, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey
Howarth, Alan (Strat'rd-on-A)Pawsey, James
Hunt, Rt Hon David (Wirral W)Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth
Hunt, Sir John (Ravensbourne)Pickles, Eric
Hunter, AndrewPorter, David (Waveney)
Hurd, Rt Hon DouglasPortillo, Rt Hon Michael
Jack, MichaelPowell, William (Corby)
Jackson, Robert (Wantage)Rathbone, Tim
Jenkin, BernardRedwood, Rt Hon John
Jessel, TobyRenton, Rt Hon Tim
Johnson Smith, Sir GeoffreyRichards, Rod
Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N)Riddick, Graham
Jones, Robert B. (W Hertfdshr)Rifkind, Rt Hon. Malcolm
Jopling, Rt Hon MichaelRobathan, Andrew
Kellett-Bowman, Dame ElaineRoberts, Rt Hon Sir Wyn
Key, RobertRobertson, Raymond (Ab'd'n S)
Kilfedder, Sir JamesRobinson, Mark (Somerton)
King, Rt Hon TomRoe, Mrs Marion (Broxbourne)
Kirkhope, TimothyRowe, Andrew (Mid Kent)
Rumbold, Rt Hon Dame AngelaThomason, Roy
Ryder, Rt Hon RichardThompson, Sir Donald (C'er V)
Sackville, TomThompson, Patrick (Norwich N)
Sainsbury, Rt Hon TimThurnham, Peter
Scott, Rt Hon NicholasTownend, John (Bridlington)
Shaw, David (Dover)Townsend, Cyril D. (Bexl'yh'th)
Shaw, Sir Giles (Pudsey)Tracey, Richard
Shephard, Rt Hon GillianTredinnick, David
Shepherd, Colin (Hereford)Trend, Michael
Shersby, MichaelTrotter, Neville
Sims, RogerTwinn, Dr lan
Skeet, Sir TrevorVaughan, Sir Gerard
Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield)Viggers, Peter
Soames, NicholasWaldegrave, Rt Hon William
Spencer, Sir DerekWalker, Bill (N Tayside)
Spicer, Sir James (W Dorset)Waller, Gary
Spicer, Michael (S Worcs)Ward, John
Spink, Dr RobertWardle, Charles (Bexhill)
Spring, RichardWaterson, Nigel
Sproat, lainWatts, John
Squire, Robin (Hornchurch)Wheeler, Rt Hon Sir John
Stanley, Rt Hon Sir JohnWhitney, Ray
Steen, AnthonyWhittingdale, John
Stephen, MichaelWiddecombe, Ann
Stern, MichaelWilkinson, John
Stewart, AllanWilletts, David
Streeter, GaryWilshire, David
Sumberg, DavidWolfson, Mark
Sweeney, WalterWood, Timothy
Sykes, JohnYeo, Tim
Tapsell, Sir PeterYoung, Rt Hon Sir George
Taylor, lan (Esher)
Taylor, Rt Hon John D. (Strgfd)Tellers for the Ayes:
Taylor, John M. (Solihull)Mr. Robert G. Hughes and
Taylor, Sir Teddy (Southend, E)Mr. James Arbuthnot
Temple-Morris, Peter
Abbott, Ms DianeCarlile, Alexander (Montgomry)
Adams, Mrs IreneChisholm, Malcolm
Ainger, NickClark, Dr David (South Shields)
Ainsworth, Robert (Cov'try NE)Clarke, Eric (Midlothian)
Allen, GrahamClarke, Tom (Monklands W)
Alton, DavidClelland, David
Anderson, Donald (Swansea E)Clwyd, Mrs Ann
Anderson, Ms Janet (Ros'dale)Coffey, Ann
Armstrong, HilaryConnarty, Michael
Ashdown, Rt Hon PaddyCook, Frank (Stockton N)
Ashton, JoeCook, Robin (Livingston)
Austin-Walker, JohnCorbett, Robin
Banks, Tony (Newham NW)Corbyn, Jeremy
Barnes, HarryCorston, Ms Jean
Barron, KevinCryer, Bob
Battle, JohnCummings, John
Bayley, HughCunliffe, Lawrence
Beckett, Rt Hon MargaretCunningham, Jim (Covy SE)
Beith, Rt Hon A. J.Cunningham, Rt Hon Dr John
Bell, StuartDafis, Cynog
Benn, Rt Hon TonyDarling, Alistair
Bennett, Andrew F.Davidson, lan
Benton, JoeDavies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli)
Bermingham, GeraldDavies, Ron (Caerphilly)
Berry, Dr. RogerDavis, Terry (B'ham, H'dge H'l)
Betts, CliveDenham, John
Blair, TonyDewar, Donald
Blunkett, DavidDixon, Don
Boateng, PaulDobson, Frank
Bradley, KeithDonohoe, Brian H.
Bray, Dr JeremyDowd, Jim
Brown, Gordon (Dunfermline E)Dunnachie, Jimmy
Brown, N. (N'c'tle upon Tyne E)Dunwoody, Mrs Gwyneth
Burden, RichardEagle, Ms Angela
Byers, StephenEastham, Ken
Callaghan, JimEggar, Tim
Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)Enright, Derek
Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE)Etherington, Bill
Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V)Evans, John (St Helens N)
Campbell-Savours, D. N.Ewing, Mrs Margaret
Canavan, DennisFaulds, Andrew
Cann, JamieField, Frank (Birkenhead)
Fisher, MarkMarek, Dr John
Flynn, PaulMarshall, David (Shettleston)
Foster, Rt Hon DerekMarshall, Jim (Leicester, S)
Foster, Don (Bath)Martin, Michael J. (Springburn)
Fraser, JohnMartlew, Eric
Fyfe, MariaMaxton, John
Galloway, GeorgeMeacher, Michael
Gapes, MikeMeale, Alan
Garrett, JohnMichael, Alun
Gerrard, NeilMichie, Bill (Sheffield Heeley)
Gilbert, Rt Hon Dr JohnMichie, Mrs Ray (Argyll Bute)
Godman, Dr Norman A.Milburn, Alan
Golding, Mrs LlinMiller, Andrew
Gordon, MildredMitchell, Austin (Gt Grimsby)
Gould, BryanMorgan, Rhodri
Graham, ThomasMorley, Elliot
Grant, Bernie (Tottenham)Morris, Rt Hon A. (Wy'nshawe)
Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)Morris, Estelle (B'ham Yardley)
Grocott, BruceMorris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon)
Gunnell, JohnMowlam, Marjorie
Hain, PeterMudie, George
Hall, MikeMullin, Chris
Hanson, DavidMurphy, Paul
Harman, Ms HarrietO'Brien, Michael (N W'kshire)
Harvey, NickO'Hara, Edward
Hattersley, Rt Hon RoyOlner, William
Henderson, DougO'Neill, Martin
Heppell, JohnOrme, Rt Hon Stanley
Hill, Keith (Streatham)Paisley, Rev lan
Hinchliffe, DavidParry, Robert
Hoey, KatePatchett, Terry
Home Robertson, JohnPendry, Tom
Hood, JimmyPickthall, Colin
Hoon, GeoffreyPike, Peter L.
Howarth, George (Knowsley N)Pope, Greg
Howells, Dr. Kim (Pontypridd)Powell, Ray (Ogmore)
Hoyle, DougPrentice, Ms Bridget (Lew'm E)
Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)
Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N)Prescott, John
Hughes, Roy (Newport E)Primarolo, Dawn
Hughes, Simon (Southwark)Purchase, Ken
Hutton, JohnQuin, Ms Joyce
Illsley, EricRadice, Giles
Jackson, Glenda (H'stead)Randall, Stuart
Jackson, Helen (Shef'ld, H)Raynsford, Nick
Jamieson, DavidReid, Dr John
Janner, GrevilleRendel, David
Jones, Barry (Alyn and D'side)Robertson, George (Hamilton)
Jones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C)Robinson, Peter (Belfast E)
Jones, Lynne (B'ham S O)Roche, Mrs. Barbara
Jones, Martyn (Clwyd, SW)Rogers, Allan
Jones, Nigel (Cheltenham)Rooker, Jeff
Jowell, TessaRooney, Terry
Kaufman, Rt Hon GeraldRoss, Ernie (Dundee W)
Keen, AlanRowlands, Ted
Kennedy, Jane (Lpool Brdgn)Ruddock, Joan
Khabra, Piara S.Salmond, Alex
Kirkwood, ArchySedgemore, Brian
Leighton, RonSheerman, Barry
Lestor, Joan (Eccles)Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert
Lewis, TerryShore, Rt Hon Peter
Livingstone, KenShort, Clare
Lloyd, Tony (Stretford)Simpson, Alan
Llwyd, ElfynSkinner, Dennis
Loyden, EddieSmith, Andrew (Oxford E)
Lynne, Ms LizSmith, Rt Hon John (M'kl'ds E)
McAllion, JohnSmith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent)
McAvoy, ThomasSnape, Peter
McCrea, Rev WilliamSoley, Clive
Macdonald, CalumSpearing, Nigel
McFall, JohnSpellar, John
McKelvey, WilliamSquire, Rachel (Dunfermline W)
Mackinlay, AndrewSteinberg, Gerry
McLeish, HenryStevenson, George
Maclennan, RobertStott, Roger
McMaster, GordonStrang, Dr. Gavin
McNamara, KevinStraw, Jack
McWilliam, JohnTaylor, Mrs Ann (Dewsbury)
Madden, MaxTaylor, Matthew (Truro)
Maddock, Mrs DianaTipping, Paddy
Tyler, PaulWilson, Brain
Walker, Rt Hon Sir HaroldWinnick, David
Wallace, JamesWise, Audrey
Walley, JoanWorthington, Tony
Wardell, Garelh (Gower)Wray, Jimmy
Wareing, Robert NWright, Dr Tony
Watson, MikeYoung, David (Bolton SE)
Welsh, Andrew
Wicks, MalcolmTellers for the Noes:
Williams, Rt Hon Alan (Sw'n W)Mr. Dennis Turner and
Williams, Alan W (Carmarthen)Mr. Peter Kilfoyle.

Question accordingly agreed to.

Question pur, That this House doth disagree with the Lords in the said amendment:—

The House proceeded to a division

Mr. Deputy Speaker:

Order. It has been reported to me that the wrong teller is in the Aye Lobby. This Division is off. I will put the Question again.

Question put, That this House doth disagree with the Lords in the said amendment:—

The House proceeded to a division

Photo of Mr Gyles Brandreth Mr Gyles Brandreth , City of Chester

(seated and covered): On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. It will have come to your attention that, during the course of this evening's debate, a number of hon. Members have been using delaying tactics in both the Lobbies. Indeed, you called the Serjeant at Arms to clear the Lobbies so that we could get on with the business of the House. Have you invited the Seijeant at Arms to note who those hon. Members are?

Mr. Deputy Speaker:

No, I have not.

Photo of Mr Gyles Brandreth Mr Gyles Brandreth , City of Chester

Further to that point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. If you have not considered doing so, and as the disruption is continuing, will you consider that possibility, because it is a little obstructive when we wish to proceed with the business before us?

Mr. Deputy Speaker:

I have no plans to do so.

Photo of Mr Ernie Ross Mr Ernie Ross , Dundee West

(seated and covered): On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I am extremely concerned. I am not sure whether I have been shunted into a siding, or whether I am still on the track. What happened in the last Division? Did a Conservative Member attempt to act as a Teller and vote at the same time?

Mr. Deputy Speaker:

I can assure the hon. Gentleman that we are still on the track, and I am sure that he will eventually find out what happened.

Photo of James Paice James Paice , South East Cambridgeshire

(seated and covered): On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I understand that, yet again, the Aye Lobby—[Interruption.]

Mr. Deputy Speaker:

Order. I cannot deal with points of order unless I can hear them.

Photo of James Paice James Paice , South East Cambridgeshire

I understand, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that the Aye Lobby is empty yet again; yet proceedings in the No Lobby are again being delayed.

Mr. Deputy Speaker:

The hon. Gentleman can safely leave the matter in my hands.

Photo of Mr Mark Robinson Mr Mark Robinson , Somerton and Frome

(seated and covered): On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. There still seems to be a blockage in the No Lobby.

Mr. Deputy Speaker:

I am well aware of the situation. Later

Mr. Deputy Speaker:

There seems to be some delay in the No Lobby. I will send the Serjeant at Arms to investigate.

The House having divided: Ayes 301, Noes 258.

Division No. 397][10.20 pm
Ainsworth, Peter (East Surrey)Dicks, Terry
Aitken, JonathanDorrell, Stephen
Alexander, RichardDouglas-Hamilton, Lord James
Alison, Rt Hon Michael (Selby)Dover, Den
Allason, Rupert (Torbay)Duncan, Alan
Amess, DavidDuncan-Smith, lain
Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham)Dunn, Bob
Arnold, Sir Thomas (Hazel Grv)Durant, Sir Anthony
Ashby, DavidElletson, Harold
Aspinwall, JackEvans, David (Welwyn Hatfield)
Atkins, RobertEvans, Jonathan (Brecon)
Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)Evans, Nigel (Ribble Valley)
Baker, Rt Hon K. (Mole Valley)Evans, Roger (Monmouth)
Baker, Nicholas (Dorset North)Evennett, David
Baldry, TonyFaber, David
Banks, Matthew (Southport)Fabricant, Michael
Banks, Robert (Harrogate)Fairbairn, Sir Nicholas
Bates, MichaelFenner, Dame Peggy
Batiste, SpencerField, Barry (Isle of Wight)
Beggs, RoyFishburn, Dudley
Bellingham, HenryForman, Nigel
Bendall, VivianForsyth, Michael (Stirling)
Beresford, Sir PaulForth, Eric
Biffen, Rt Hon JohnFowler, Rt Hon Sir Norman
Blackburn, Dr John G.Fox, Dr Liam (Woodspring)
Bonsor, Sir NicholasFox, Sir Marcus (Shipley)
Booth, HartleyFreeman, Rt Hon Roger
Boswell, TimFrench, Douglas
Bottomley, Peter (Eltham)Fry, Peter
Bottomley, Rt Hon VirginiaGale, Roger
Bowden, AndrewGallie, Phil
Bowis, JohnGardiner, Sir George
Boyson, Rt Hon Sir RhodesGarel-Jones, Rt Hon Tristan
Brandreth, GylesGarnier, Edward
Brazier, JulianGill, Christopher
Bright, GrahamGoodlad, Rt Hon Alastair
Brooke, Rt Hon PeterGoodson-Wickes, Dr Charles
Brown, M. (Brigg & Cl'thorpes)Gorman, Mrs Teresa
Browning, Mrs. AngelaGorst, John
Bruce, lan (S Dorset)Grant, Sir A. (Cambs SW)
Budgen, NicholasGreenway, Harry (Ealing N)
Burns, SimonGreenway, John (Ryedale)
Burt, AlistairGriffiths, Peter (Portsmouth, N)
Butler, PeterGrylls, Sir Michael
Carlisle, John (Luton North)Gummer, Rt Hon John Selwyn
Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln)Hague, William
Carrington, MatthewHamilton, Rt Hon Archie (Epsom)
Cash, WilliamHamilton, Neil (Tatton)
Channon, Rt Hon PaulHanley, Jeremy
Chapman, SydneyHannam, Sir John
Clappison, JamesHargreaves, Andrew
Clarke, Rt Hon Kenneth (Ruclif)Harris, David
Clifton-Brown, GeoffreyHaselhurst, Alan
Coe, SebastianHawkins, Nick
Colvin, MichaelHawksley, Warren
Congdon, DavidHayes, Jerry
Conway, DerekHeald, Oliver
Coombs, Anthony (Wyre For'st)Heathcoat-Amory, David
Coombs, Simon (Swindon)Hendry, Charles
Cope, Rt Hon Sir JohnHeseltine, Rt Hon Michael
Cormack, PatrickHiggins, Rt Hon Sir Terence L.
Couchman, JamesHill, James (Southampton Test)
Cran, JamesHogg, Rt Hon Douglas (G'tham)
Currie, Mrs Edwina (S D'by'ire)Horam, John
Curry, David (Skipton & Ripon)Hordern, Rt Hon Sir Peter
Davies, Quentin (Stamford)Howard, Rt Hon Michael
Davis, David (Boothferry)Howarth, Alan (Strat'rd-on-A)
Deva, Nirj JosephHunt, Rt Hon David (Wirral W)
Devlin, TimHunt, Sir John (Ravensbourne)
Hunter, AndrewPickles, Eric
Hurd, Rt Hon DouglasPorter, David (Waveney)
Jack, MichaelPortillo, Rt Hon Michael
Jackson, Robert (Wantage)Powell, William (Corby)
Jenkin, BernardRathbone, Tim
Jessel, TobyRedwood, Rt Hon John
Johnson Smith, Sir GeoffreyRenton, Rt Hon Tim
Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N)Richards, Rod
Jones, Robert B. (W Hertfdshr)Riddick, Graham
Jopling, Rt Mon MichaelRifkind, Rt Hon. Malcolm
Kellett-Bowman, Dame ElaineRobathan, Andrew
Key, RobertRoberts, Rt Hon Sir Wyn
Kilfedder, Sir JamesRobertson, Raymond (Ab'd'n S)
King, Rt Hon TomRobinson, Mark (Somerton)
Kirkhope, TimothyRoe, Mrs Marion (Broxbourne)
Knapman, RogerRowe, Andrew (Mid Kent)
Knight, Mrs Angela (Erewash)Rumbold, Rt Hon Dame Angela
Knight, Greg (Derby N)Ryder, Rt Hon Richard
Knight, Dame Jill (Bir'm E'st'n)Sackville, Tom
Knox, Sir DavidSainsbury, Rt Hon Tim
Kynoch, George (Kincardine)Scott, Rt Hon Nicholas
Lait, Mrs JacquiShaw, David (Dover)
Lamont, Rt Hon NormanShaw, Sir Giles (Pudsey)
Lang, Rt Hon lanShephard, Rt Hon Gillian
Lawrence, Sir IvanShepherd, Colin (Hereford)
Legg, BarryShersby, Michael
Leigh, EdwardSims, Roger
Lennox-Boyd, MarkSkeet, Sir Trevor
Lester, Jim (Broxtowe)Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield)
Lidington, DavidSoames, Nicholas
Lightbown, DavidSpencer, Sir Derek
Lilley, Rt Hon PeterSpicer, Sir James (W Dorset)
Lloyd, Peter (Fareham)Spicer, Michael (S Worcs)
Lord, MichaelSpink, Dr Robert
Luff, PeterSpring, Richard
Lyell, Rt Hon Sir NicholasSproat, lain
MacGregor, Rt Hon JohnSquire, Robin (Hornchurch)
MacKay, AndrewStanley, Rt Hon Sir John
Maclean, DavidSteen, Anthony
McLoughlin, PatrickStephen, Michael
McNair-Wilson, Sir PatrickStern, Michael
Madel, DavidStewart, Allan
Maitland, Lady OlgaStreeter, Gary
Major, Rt Hon JohnSumberg, David
Malone, GeraldSweeney, Walter
Mans, KeithSykes, John
Marland, PaulTapsell, Sir Peter
Marlow, TonyTaylor, lan (Esher)
Marshall, John (Hendon S)Taylor, Rt Hon John D. (Strgfd)
Marshall, Sir Michael (Arundel)Taylor, John M. (Solihull)
Martin, David (Portsmouth S)Taylor, Sir Teddy (Southend, E)
Mates, MichaelTemple-Morris, Peter
Mawhinney, Dr BrianThomason, Roy
Mayhew, Rt Hon Sir PatrickThompson, Sir Donald (C'er V)
Mellor, Rt Hon DavidThompson, Patrick (Norwich N)
Merchant, PiersThurnham, Peter
Milligan, StephenTownend, John (Bridlington)
Mills, lainTownsend, Cyril D. (Bexl'yh'th)
Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling)Tracey, Richard
Mitchell, Sir David (Hants NW)Tredinnick, David
Moate, Sir RogerTrend, Michael
Montgomery, Sir FergusTrotter, Neville
Moss, MalcolmTwinn, Dr lan
Needham, RichardVaughan, Sir Gerard
Nelson, AnthonyViggers, Peter
Neubert, Sir MichaelWaldegrave, Rt Hon William
Newton, Rt Hon TonyWalker, Bill (N Tayside)
Nicholls, PatrickWaller, Gary
Nicholson, David (Taunton)Ward, John
Nicholson, Emma (Devon West)Wardle, Charles (Bexhill)
Norris, SteveWaterson, Nigel
Onslow, Rt Hon Sir CranleyWatts, John
Oppenheim, PhillipWheeler, Rt Hon Sir John
Ottaway, RichardWhitney, Ray
Page, RichardWhittingdale, John
Paice, JamesWiddecombe, Ann
Patnick, IrvineWilkinson, John
Pattie, Rt Hon Sir GeoffreyWilletts, David
Pawsey, JamesWilshire, David
Peacock. Mrs ElizabethWolfson, Mark
Wood, TimothyTellers for the Ayes:
Yeo, TimMr. Robert G. Hughes and
Young, Rt Hon Sir GeorgeMr. James Arbuthnot.
Abbott, Ms DianeDunwoody, Mrs Gwyneth
Adams, Mrs IreneEagle, Ms Angela
Ainger, NickEastham, Ken
Ainsworth, Robert (Cov'try NE)Enright, Derek
Allen, GrahamEtherington, Bill
Alton, DavidEvans, John (St Helens N)
Anderson, Donald (Swansea E)Ewing, Mrs Margaret
Anderson, Ms Janet (Ros'dale)Faulds, Andrew
Armstrong, HilaryField, Frank (Birkenhead)
Ashdown, Rt Hon PaddyFisher, Mark
Ashton, JoeFlynn, Paul
Austin-Walker, JohnFoster, Rt Hon Derek
Banks, Tony (Newham NW)Foster, Don (Bath)
Barnes, HarryFraser, John
Barron, KevinFyfe, Maria
Battle, JohnGalloway, George
Bayley, HughGapes, Mike
Beckett, Rt Hon MargaretGarrett, John
Beith, Rt Hon A. J.Gerrard, Neil
Bell, StuartGilbert, Rt Hon Dr John
Benn, Rt Hon TonyGodman, Dr Norman A.
Bennett, Andrew F.Golding, Mrs Llin
Benton, JoeGordon, Mildred
Bermingham, GeraldGraham, Thomas
Berry, Dr. RogerGrant, Bemie (Tottenham)
Betts, CliveGriffiths, Win (Bridgend)
Blair, TonyGrocott, Bruce
Blunkett, DavidGunnell, John
Boateng, PaulHain, Peter
Bradley, KeithHall, Mike
Bray, Dr JeremyHanson, David
Brown, Gordon (Dunfermline E)Harman, Ms Harriet
Brown, N. (N'c'tle upon Tyne E)Harvey, Nick
Burden, RichardHattersley, Rt Hon Roy
Byers, StephenHenderson, Doug
Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)Heppell, John
Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE)Hill, Keith (Streatham)
Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V)Hinchliffe, David
Campbell-Savours, D. N.Hoey, Kate
Canavan, DennisHome Robertson, John
Cann, JamieHood, Jimmy
Carlile, Alexander (Montgomry)Hoon, Geoffrey
Chisholm, MalcolmHowarth, George (Knowsley N)
Clark, Dr David (South Shields)Howells, Dr. Kim (Pontypridd)
Clarke, Eric (Midlothian)Hoyle, Doug
Clarke, Tom (Monklands W)Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)
Clelland, DavidHughes, Robert (Aberdeen N)
Clwyd, Mrs AnnHughes, Roy (Newport E)
Coffey, AnnHughes, Simon (Southwark)
Connarty, MichaelHutton, John
Cook, Frank (Stockton N)Jackson, Glenda (H'stead)
Cook, Robin (Livingston)Jackson, Helen (Shef'ld, H)
Corbett, RobinJamieson, David
Corbyn, JeremyJanner, Greville
Corston, Ms JeanJones, Barry (Alyn and D'side)
Cousins, JimJones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C)
Cryer, BobJones, Lynne (B'ham S O)
Cummings, JohnJones, Martyn (Clwyd, SW)
Cunliffe, LawrenceJones, Nigel (Cheltenham)
Cunningham, Jim (Covy SE)Jowell, Tessa
Cunningham, Rt Hon Dr JohnKaufman, Rt Hon Gerald
Dafis, CynogKeen, Alan
Darling, AlistairKennedy, Jane (Lpool Brdgn)
Davidson, lanKhabra, Piara S.
Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli)Kilfoyle, Peter
Davies, Ron (Caerphilly)Leighton, Ron
Davis, Terry (B'ham, H'dge H'l)Lestor, Joan (Eccles)
Denham, JohnLewis, Terry
Dewar, DonaldLivingstone, Ken
Dixon, DonLloyd, Tony (Stretford)
Dobson, FrankLlwyd, Elfyn
Donohoe, Brian H.Loyden, Eddie
Dowd, JimLynne, Ms Liz
Dunnachie, JimmyMcAllion, John
McAvoy, ThomasMorley, Elliot
McCrea, Rev WilliamMorris, Rt Hon A. (Wy'nshawe)
Macdonald, CalumMorris, Estelle (B'ham Yardley)
McFall, JohnMorris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon)
McKelvey, WilliamMowlam, Marjorie
Mackinlay, AndrewMudie, George
McLeish, HenryMullin, Chris
Maclennan, RobertMurphy, Paul
McMaster, GordonO'Brien, Michael (N W'kshire)
McNamara, KevinO'Hara, Edward
McWilliam, JohnOlner, William
Madden, MaxO'Neill, Martin
Maddock, Mrs DianaOrme, Rt Hon Stanley
Mandelson, PeterPaisley, Rev Ian
Marek, Dr JohnParry, Robert
Marshall, David (Shettleston)Patchett, Terry
Marshall, Jim (Leicester, S)Pendry, Tom
Martin, Michael J.(Springburn)Pickthall, Colin
Martlew, EricPike, Peter L.
Maxton, JohnPope, Greg
Meacher, MichaelPowell, Ray (Ogmore)
Meale, AlanPrentice, Ms Bridget(Lew'm E)
Michael, AlunPrentice, Gordon (Pendle)
Michie, Bill (Sheffield Heeley)Prescott, John
Michie, Mrs Ray (Argyll Bute)Primarolo, Dawn
Milburn, AlanPurchase, Ken
Miller, AndrewQuin, Ms Joyce
Mitchell, Austin (Gt Grimsby)Radice, Giles
Morgan, RhodriRandall, Stuart
Raynsford, NickStott, Roger
Reid, Dr JohnStrang, Dr. Gavin
Rendel, DavidStraw, Jack
Robertson, George (Hamilton)Taylor, Mrs Ann (Dewsbury)
Robinson, Peter (Belfast E)Taylor, Matthew (Truro)
Roche, Mrs. BarbaraTipping, Paddy
Rogers, AllanTurner, Dennis
Rooker, JeffTyler, Paul
Rooney, TerryWalker, Rt Hon Sir Harold
Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)Wallace, James
Rowlands, TedWalley, Joan
Ruddock, JoanWardell, Gareth (Gower)
Sedgemore, BrianWatson, Mike
Sheerman, BarryWelsh, Andrew
Sheldon, Rt Hon RobertWicks, Malcolm
Shore, Rt Hon PeterWilliams, Rt Hon Alan (Sw'n W)
Short, ClareWilliams, Alan W (Carmarthen)
Simpson, AlanWilson, Brian
Skinner, DennisWinnick, David
Smith, Andrew (Oxford E)Wise, Audrey
Smith, Rt Hon John (M'kl'ds E)Worthington, Tony
Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent)Wray, Jimmy
Snape, PeterWright, Dr Tony
Soley, CliveYoung, David (Bolton SE)
Spearing, Nigel
Squire, Rachel (Dunfermline W)Tellers for the Noes:
Steinberg, GerryMr. Eric Illsley and
Stevenson, GeorgeMr. John Spellar

Question accordingly agreed to.

Motion made, and Question,That a Committee be appointed to draw up reasons to be assigned to the Lords for disagreeing to their amendments to the amendment proposed by the Commons in lieu of amendment No. 31; that Mr. Michael Brown, Mr. Alex Carlile, Mr. Roger Freeman, Mr. Secretary MacGregor and Mr. Brian Wilson be the members of the Committee; that three be the quorum; that the Committee do withdraw immediately.—[Mr. MacGregor.]put forthwith pursuant to Order [2 November]:
The House proceeded to a Division

Photo of Miss Betty Boothroyd Miss Betty Boothroyd Speaker of the House of Commons

Serjeant, would you inspect the No Lobby? I understand that there is a blockage there, and I want it removed immediately.

Photo of Mr John Marshall Mr John Marshall , Hendon South

On a point of order, Madam Speaker. I apologise for the headgear, but I understand—

Photo of Miss Betty Boothroyd Miss Betty Boothroyd Speaker of the House of Commons

Order. When I am in the Chair, the hon. Gentleman must wear a hat. He will look far more handsome.

Photo of Mr John Marshall Mr John Marshall , Hendon South

(seated and covered): On a point of order, Madam Speaker. I understand that there are now blockages in both Lobbies.

Photo of Miss Betty Boothroyd Miss Betty Boothroyd Speaker of the House of Commons

That makes it even, then. Will the Serjeant at Arms inspect the Aye Lobby?

Photo of Alun Michael Alun Michael , Cardiff South and Penarth

(seated and covered): On a point of order, Madam Speaker. Earlier tonight the question was asked why the bells did not ring when an earlier Division was called. It appears that the Serjeant at Arms is able to go into the Lobbies to ask Members to come out, but not to sort out why the bells did not ring or say whether they will ring on future occasions. Is it not appropriate that the Serjeant at Arms should be able to tell us that the bells will ring when they should so that everyone is aware when the Division is called?

Photo of Miss Betty Boothroyd Miss Betty Boothroyd Speaker of the House of Commons

The hon. Gentleman should not trouble himself, because I intend to find out tomorrow whether the bells rang or not.

Photo of Mr Tony Newton Mr Tony Newton , Braintree

(seated and covered): On a point of order, Madam Speaker. I wish to make the point that yesterday I was accused of constitutional outrage for moving a timetable motion on this Bill. It should be registered that what we are experiencing tonight is a constitutional outrage—[Interruption]—and I hope that you will decide to have the matter thoroughly investigated.

Photo of Miss Betty Boothroyd Miss Betty Boothroyd Speaker of the House of Commons

As the right hon. Gentleman and the House are aware, I am always prepared to defend this House nationally and internationally when it is robust and when it has quality debate and quality argument. I cannot defend it when it is in a state of disorder.

The House having divided: Ayes 315, Noes 244.

Division No. 398][10.42
Ainsworth, Peter (East Surrey)Ashby, David
Aitken, JonathanAshdown, Rt Hon Paddy
Alexander, RichardAspinwall, Jack
Alison, Rt Hon Michael (Selby)Atkins, Robert
Allason, Rupert (Torbay)Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)
Alton, DavidBaker, Rt Hon K. (Mole Valley)
Amess, DavidBaker, Nicholas (Dorset North)
Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham)Baldry, Tony
Arnold, Sir Thomas (Hazel Grv)Banks, Matthew (Southport)
Banks, Robert (Harrogate)Fox, Dr Liam (Woodspring)
Bates, MichaelFox, Sir Marcus (Shipley)
Batiste, SpencerFreeman, Rt Hon Roger
Beggs, RoyFrench, Douglas
Beith, Rt Hon A. J.Fry, Peter
Bellingham, HenryGale, Roger
Bendall, VivianGallie, Phil
Beresford, Sir PaulGardiner, Sir George
Biffen, Rt Hon JohnGarel-Jones, Rt Hon Tristan
Blackburn, Dr John G.Garnier, Edward
Bonsor, Sir NicholasGill, Christopher
Booth, HartleyGoodlad, Rt Hon Alastair
Boswell, TimGoodson-Wickes, Dr Charles
Bottomley, Peter (Eltham)Gorman, Mrs Teresa
Bottomley, Rt Hon VirginiaGorst, John
Bowden, AndrewGrant, Sir A. (Cambs SW)
Bowis, JohnGreenway, Harry (Ealing N)
Boyson, Rt Hon Sir RhodesGreenway, John (Ryedale)
Brandreth, GylesGriffiths, Peter (Portsmouth, N)
Brazier, JulianGrylls, Sir Michael
Bright, GrahamGummer, Rt Hon John Selwyn
Brooke, Rt Hon PeterHague, William
Brown, M. (Brigg & Cl'thorpes)Hamilton, Rt Hon Archie (Epsom)
Browning, Mrs. AngelaHamilton, Neil (Tatton)
Bruce, Ian (S Dorset)Hanley, Jeremy
Budgen, NicholasHannam, Sir John
Burns, SimonHargreaves, Andrew
Burt, AlistairHarris, David
Butler, PeterHarvey, Nick
Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE)Haselhurst, Alan
Carlisle, John (Luton North)Hawkins, Nick
Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln)Hawksley, Warren
Carrington, MatthewHayes, Jerry
Cash, WilliamHeald, Oliver
Channon, Rt Hon PaulHeathcoat-Amory, David
Chapman, SydneyHendry, Charles
Clappison, JamesHeseltine, Rt Hon Michael
Clarke, Rt Hon Kenneth (Ruclif)Higgins, Rt Hon Sir Terence L.
Clifton-Brown, GeoffreyHill, James (Southampton Test)
Coe, SebastianHogg, Rt Hon Douglas (G'tham)
Colvin, MichaelHoram, John
Congdon, DavidHordern, Rt Hon Sir Peter
Conway, DerekHoward, Rt Hon Michael
Coombs, Anthony (Wyre For'st)Howarth, Alan (Strafrd-on-A)
Coombs, Simon (Swindon)Hunt, Rt Hon David (Wirral W)
Cope, Rt Hon Sir JohnHunt, Sir John (Ravensbourne)
Cormack, PatrickHunter, Andrew
Couchman, JamesHurd, Rt Hon Douglas
Cran, JamesJack, Michael
Currie, Mrs Edwina (S D'by'ire)Jackson, Robert (Wantage)
Curry, David (Skipton & Ripon)Jenkin, Bernard
Davies, Quentin (Stamford)Jessel, Toby
Davis, David (Boothferry)Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey
Deva, Nirj JosephJones, Gwilym (Cardiff N)
Devlin, TimJones, Robert B. (W Hertfdshr)
Dicks, TerryJopling, Rt Hon Michael
Dorrell, StephenKellett-Bowman, Dame Elaine
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord JamesKey, Robert
Dover, DenKilfedder, Sir James
Duncan, AlanKing, Rt Hon Tom
Duncan-Smith, lainKirkhope, Timothy
Dunn, BobKnapman, Roger
Durant, Sir AnthonyKnight, Mrs Angela (Erewash)
Elletson, HaroldKnight, Greg (Derby N)
Evans, David (Welwyn Hatfield)Knight, Dame Jill (Bir'm E'st'n)
Evans, Jonathan (Brecon)Knox, Sir David
Evans, Nigel (Ribble Valley)Kynoch, George (Kincardine)
Evans, Roger (Monmouth)Lait, Mrs Jacqui
Evennett, DavidLamont, Rt Hon Norman
Faber, DavidLang, Rt Hon Ian
Fabricant, MichaelLawrence, Sir Ivan
Fairbairn, Sir NicholasLegg, Barry
Fenner, Dame PeggyLeigh, Edward
Field, Barry (Isle of Wight)Lennox-Boyd, Mark
Fishburn, DudleyLester, Jim (Broxtowe)
Forman, NigelLidington, David
Forsyth, Michael (Stirling)Lightbown, David
Forth, EricLilley, Rt Hon Peter
Foster, Don (Bath)Lloyd, Peter (Fareham)
Fowler, Rt Hon Sir NormanLord, Michael
Luff, PeterScott, Rt Hon Nicholas
Lyell, Rt Hon Sir NicholasShaw, David (Dover)
Lynne, Ms LizShaw, Sir Giles (Pudsey)
MacGregor, Rt Hon JohnShephard, Rt Hon Gillian
MacKay, AndrewShepherd, Colin (Hereford)
Maclean, DavidShersby, Michael
Maclennan, RobertSims, Roger
McLoughlin, PatrickSkeet, Sir Trevor
McNair-Wilson, Sir PatrickSmith, Tim (Beaconsfield)
Maddock, Mrs DianaSoames, Nicholas
Madel, DavidSpencer, Sir Derek
Maitland, Lady OlgaSpicer, Sir James (W Dorset)
Major, Rt Hon JohnSpicer, Michael (S Worcs)
Malone, GeraldSpink, Dr Robert
Mans, KeithSpring, Richard
Marland, PaulSproat, lain
Marlow, TonySquire, Robin (Hornchurch)
Marshall, John (Hendon S)Stanley, Rt Hon Sir John
Marshall, Sir Michael (Arundel)Steen, Anthony
Martin, David (Portsmouth S)Stephen, Michael
Mawhinney, Dr BrianStern, Michael
Mayhew, Rt Hon Sir PatrickStewart, Allan
Mellor, Rt Hon DavidStreeter, Gary
Merchant, PiersSumberg, David
Michie, Mrs Ray (Argyll Bute)Sweeney, Walter
Milligan, StephenSykes, John
Mills, lainTapsell, Sir Peter
Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling)Taylor, Ian (Esher)
Mitchell, Sir David (Hants NW)Taylor, Rt Hon John D. (Strgfd)
Moate, Sir RogerTaylor, John M. (Solihull)
Montgomery, Sir FergusTaylor, Matthew (Truro)
Moss, MalcolmTaylor, Sir Teddy (Southend, E)
Needham, RichardTemple-Morris, Peter
Nelson, AnthonyThomason, Roy
Neubert, Sir MichaelThompson, Sir Donald (C'er V)
Newton, Rt Hon TonyThompson, Patrick (Norwich N)
Nicholls, PatrickThurnham, Peter
Nicholson, David (Taunton)Townend, John (Bridlington)
Nicholson, Emma (Devon West)Townsend, Cyril D. (Bexl'yh'th)
Norris, SteveTracey, Richard
Onslow, Rt Hon Sir CranleyTredinnick, David
Oppenheim, PhillipTrend, Michael
Ottaway, RichardTrotter, Neville
Page, RichardTwinn, Dr Ian
Paice, JamesTyler, Paul
Patnick, IrvineVaughan, Sir Gerard
Pattie, Rt Hon Sir GeoffreyViggers, Peter
Pawsey, JamesWaldegrave, Rt Hon William
Peacock, Mrs ElizabethWalker, Bill (N Tayside)
Pickles, EricWallace, James
Porter, David (Waveney)Waller, Gary
Portillo, Rt Hon MichaelWard, John
Powell, William (Corby)Wardle, Charles (Bexhill)
Rathbone, TimWaterson, Nigel
Redwood, Rt Hon JohnWatts, John
Rendel, DavidWheeler, Rt Hon Sir John
Renton, Rt Hon TimWhitney, Ray
Richards, RodWhittingdale, John
Riddick, GrahamWiddecombe, Ann
Rifkind, Rt Hon. MalcolmWilkinson, John
Robathan, AndrewWilletts, David
Roberts, Rt Hon Sir WynWilshire, David
Robertson, Raymond (Ab'd'n S)Wolfson, Mark
Robinson, Mark (Somerton)Wood, Timothy
Roe, Mrs Marion (Broxbourne)Yeo, Tim
Rowe, Andrew (Mid Kent)Young, Rt Hon Sir George
Rumbold, Rt Hon Dame Angela
Ryder, Rt Hon RichardTellers for the Ayes:
Sackville, TomMr. Robert G. Hughes and
Sainsbury, Rt Hon TimMr. James Arbuthnot
Abbott, Ms DianeAshton, Joe
Adams, Mrs IreneAustin-Walker, John
Ainger, NickBanks, Tony (Newham NW)
Ainsworth, Robert (Cov'try NE)Barnes, Harry
Allen, GrahamBarron, Kevin
Anderson, Donald (Swansea E)Battle, John
Anderson, Ms Janet (Ros'dale)Bayley, Hugh
Armstrong, HilaryBeckett, Rt Hon Margaret
Bell, StuartGrocott, Bruce
Benn, Rt Hon TonyGunnell, John
Bennett, Andrew F.Hain, Peter
Benton, JoeHall, Mike
Bermingham, GeraldHanson, David
Berry, Dr. RogerHarman, Ms Harriet
Betts, CliveHattersley, Rt Hon Roy
Blair, TonyHenderson, Doug
Blunkett, DavidHeppell, John
Boateng, PaulHill, Keith (Streatham)
Bradley, KeithHinchliffe, David
Bray, Dr JeremyHoey, Kate
Brown, Gordon (Dunfermline E)Home Robertson, John
Brown, N. (N'c'tle upon Tyne E)Hood, Jimmy
Burden, RichardHoon, Geoffrey
Byers, StephenHowarth, George (Knowsley N)
Callaghan, JimHowells, Dr. Kim (Pontypridd)
Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)Hoyle, Doug
Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V)Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)
Campbell-Savours, D. N.Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N)
Canavan, DennisHughes, Roy (Newport E)
Cann, JamieHughes, Simon (Southwark)
Chisholm, MalcolmHutton, John
Clark, Dr David (South Shields)Jackson, Glenda (H'stead)
Clarke, Eric (Midlothian)Jackson, Helen (Shefld, H)
Clarke, Tom (Monklands W)Jamieson, David
Clelland, DavidJanner, Greville
Clwyd, Mrs AnnJones, Barry (Alyn and D'side)
Coffey, AnnJones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C)
Connarty, MichaelJones, Lynne (B'ham S O)
Cook, Frank (Stockton N)Jones, Martyn (Clwyd, SW)
Cook, Robin (Livingston)Jones, Nigel (Cheltenham)
Corbett, RobinJowell, Tessa
Corbyn, JeremyKaufman, Rt Hon Gerald
Corston, Ms JeanKeen, Alan
Cousins, JimKennedy, Jane (Lpool Brdgn)
Cox, TomKhabra, Piara S.
Cryer, BobKilfoyle, Peter
Cummings, JohnLeighton, Ron
Cunliffe, LawrenceLestor, Joan (Eccles)
Cunningham, Jim (Covy SE)Lewis, Terry
Cunningham, Rt Hon Dr JohnLivingstone, Ken
Dafis, CynogLloyd, Tony (Stretford)
Darling, AlistairLlwyd, Elfyn
Davidson, IanLoyden, Eddie
Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli)McAllion, John
Davies, Ron (Caerphilly)McAvoy, Thomas
Davis, Terry (B'ham, H'dge H'I)McCrea, Rev William
Denham, JohnMacdonald, Calum
Dewar, DonaldMcFall, John
Dixon, DonMcKelvey, William
Dobson, FrankMackinlay, Andrew
Donohoe, Brian H.McLeish, Henry
Dowd, JimMcMaster, Gordon
Dunnachie, JimmyMcNamara, Kevin
Dunwoody, Mrs GwynethMcWilliam, John
Eagle, Ms AngelaMadden, Max
Eastham, KenMandelson, Peter
Enright, DerekMarek, Dr John
Etherington, BillMarshall, David (Shettleston)
Evans, John (St Helens N)Marshall, Jim (Leicester, S)
Ewing, Mrs MargaretMartin, Michael J. (Springburn)
Faulds, AndrewMartlew, Eric
Field, Frank (Birkenhead)Maxton, John
Fisher, MarkMeacher, Michael
Flynn, PaulMeale, Alan
Foster, Rt Hon DerekMichael, Alun
Fraser, JohnMichie, Bill (Sheffield Heeley)
Fyfe, MariaMilburn, Alan
Galloway, GeorgeMiller, Andrew
Gapes, MikeMitchell, Austin (Gt Grimsby)
Garrett, JohnMorgan, Rhodri
Gerrard, NeilMorley, Elliot
Gilbert, Rt Hon Dr JohnMorris, Rt Hon A. (Wy'nshawe)
Godman, Dr Norman A.Morris, Estelle (B'ham Yardley)
Golding, Mrs LlinMorris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon)
Gordon, MildredMowlam, Marjorie
Graham, ThomasMudie, George
Grant, Bemie (Tottenham)Mullin, Chris
Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)Murphy, Paul
O'Brien, Michael (N W'kshire)Simpson, Alan
O'Hara, EdwardSkinner, Dennis
Olner, WilliamSmith, Andrew (Oxford E)
O'Neill, MartinSmith, Rt Hon John (M'kl'ds E)
Orme, Rt Hon StanleySmith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent)
Paisley, Rev IanSnape, Peter
Patchett, TerrySoley, Clive
Pendry, TomSpearing, Nigel
Pickthall, ColinSpellar, John
Pike, Peter L.Squire, Rachel (Dunfermline W)
Pope, GregSteinberg, Gerry
Powell, Ray (Ogmore)Stevenson, George
Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lew'm E)Stott, Roger
Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)Strang, Dr. Gavin
Prescott, JohnStraw, Jack
Primarolo, DawnTaylor, Mrs Ann (Dewsbury)
Purchase, KenTipping, Paddy
Quin, Ms JoyceWalker, Rt Hon Sir Harold
Radice, GilesWalley, Joan
Randall, StuartWardell, Gareth (Gower)
Raynsford, NickWareing, Robert N
Reid, Dr JohnWatson, Mike
Robertson, George (Hamilton)Welsh, Andrew
Robinson, Peter (Belfast E)Wicks, Malcolm
Roche, Mrs. BarbaraWilliams, Rt Hon Alan (Sw'n W)
Rogers, AllanWilliams, Alan W (Carmarthen)
Rooker, JeffWinnick, David
Rooney, TerryWise, Audrey
Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)Worthington, Tony
Rowlands, TedWray, Jimmy
Ruddock, JoanWright, Dr Tony
Sedgemore, BrianYoung, David (Bolton SE)
Sheerman, Barry
Sheldon, Rt Hon RobertTellers for the Noes:
Shore, Rt Hon PeterMr. Dennis Turner and
Short, ClareMr. Eric Illsley.

Question accordingly agreed to.