The south bank centre is not totally privately funded. It gets a large part of its funds from the Government, from the Office of Arts and Libraries, from my Department, and there is that important space available which, if it were not used for a charging museum, could be used for something else.

However, I do not think that that is a proper line for us to pursue at the moment. As with so many issues, I do not think that the Labour party has worked out its policy clearly on this.

The directors of both the science museum and the natural history museum—the two most evident museums which decided, with their trustees, to introduce charges—pointed out to me, in discussions that I have had with them since becoming Minister for the Arts, the improvements in service and display that have derived from charging in their establishments. They do not think that charging is a backward step. They reckon that, for example, it has prompted them to provide much better services within the museum for their customers.

I do not think that the directors of those two museums would wish to recoil and depart from the charging principle. Charging gives them financial flexibilities, which derive from self-engendered funding because, as my hon. Friend the Member for Battersea asked, the moneys that they bring in from charging are not deducted from their three-year funding but are in addition and they have flexibility as to how they are used.

As regards the broader point, the decisions that flowed from charging brought about the new atmosphere—the change in outlook to which my hon. Friend referred. Now, we have a far greater sense of confidence in many of our national museums—a sense of direction, or knowledge in where they are trying to go to—than was the case five years ago. We see that in the exhibitions and the displays that those museums are putting on.

Much publicity has been given to the new ecology gallery at the natural history museum. It has been described in exciting terms: One end of this 50 yard long chasm is a life-size replica of a patch of rain forest, made of plastic. At the other, mirrors and a square-shaped wall of 20 video screens are combined to give the illusion of a huge animated hemisphere. The on-screen images trace the hydrological cycle of rainfall, evaporation and cloud formation. What is the purpose of that? It is to show off in the natural history museum the basic history of ecology in a manner that is exciting and scientifically correct, but will stimulate interest among families and children.

It is that evolution towards exciting, often "hands-on", displays at the natural history museum, the science museum, the imperial war museum—with their recently opened "experiences" which go by the names of Blitz and Trench—and increasingly at the national maritime museum, and the determination to show off their collections in a manner that the public will find attractive and interesting, but that will not detract from experts' interest, that is giving a new sense of confidence and determination to so many of our national museums.

They are not all there yet. Here I agree with the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, Central. Some of our major museums are still in some doubts as to the direction in which they should go, and have difficulty in making the decisions as to how they can both win over the family with interesting exhibitions, yet keep the interest of the experts who have used access to their museums for so long.

By and large, however, the pattern is clear now and there is a far greater sense of determination in our national museums—a sense of where they want to go—which is reflected in the attendance figures. Last year, the estimate for attendance at national museums and galleries—for which I am responsible—was more than 20 million, 5·7 per cent. up on the year before. I believe that that trend will continue, and that more and more people will visit the museums and galleries as they solve the problems with which they were faced in the 1980s.

An important trend, referred to by my hon. Friend the Member for Battersea, is represented by the decision of my predecessor—my right hon. Friend the Member for Shoreham—to improve training, through the Museums Training Institute, for all who work in museums. In January 1989, my right hon. Friend announced the establishment of the institute, which would be responsible for the strategic development of training by establishing standards, validating courses, and providing training in selected areas. I consider that an important priority, which is emphasised by our commitment to provide significant support for the institute's activities—£400,000 in the current financial year.

Although the institute has not been going for long, it has already made significant achievements. It has been accorded official status as the lead body for the museums and heritage industry; it has established a steering committee that will develop a standards framework; and it is establishing 12 functional groups that will deal with the provision of training in a number of important areas such as collections and management, exhibition design, fund-raising and sponsorship, technical work, research, conservation, education and retail sales.

The aim is to ensure that anyone who enters the museum service—whether at the young age of 16, or later in life—not only has the opportunity to be trained upwards, so that he can progress from being, say, an attendant to becoming a museum director or curator, but has a certificate to give him the chance of a professional qualification that will give him better job security, or make it easier for him to transfer from one museum to another. That aspect has been neglected in the past, but I think that our aim is important and that even Opposition Members will wish it success.

My hon. Friend the Member for Battersea said some kind words about the increase in our funding of museums and galleries, which—inevitably—were contradicted immediately by the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, Central. I should not have expected anything else, but I remind hon. Members that, in the financial year that we are entering, our grant in aid for the national museums and galleries will increase by 8·5 per cent., from £99 million to £107 million.

Building and maintenance are a problem. That stems from the fact that so many of our great museums and galleries were built at the end of the Victorian age. The Victoria and Albert museum, for instance, was not very well built. Its construction involved experimentation with new materials. Because it was regarded as a museum for manufactures, it was considered appropriate to try out, for example, new types of concrete which were not always successful. Now, however, we are well aware of the problems of building and maintenance, which is why we are allocating £59 million for that purpose in the year ahead. That represents an increase of 115 per cent., after inflation, since 1979–80, when we came into office. Over the next three years, the allocation will be more than £189 million.

It was to review and assess the total building and renovation needs of our museums and galleries that, soon after taking up my post, I appointed Arup Research and Development. It is a problem because of the age of the buildings involved, and it is for that reason that the advice to be given to me Arup, who will report by the end of the summer, will be very useful indeed.

My hon. Friend the Member for Battersea (Mr. Bowis) also asked me whether I proposed to continue to tie the wages and salary conditions of museum staff to civil service grades. This is an area in which I keep an open mind; I have not yet reached final decisions on the future pay regime for national museums and galleries staff. I have no immediate intention of making changes. There is now a wide range of pay and personnel flexibilities, as my hon. Friend will know, available within the civil service arrangements. It is nevertheless an area where it is worth keeping an open mind, always remembering the possibility that there should be changes.

My hon. Friend the Member for Battersea also asked me about disposals from collections. He will know, because he is very much an expert in this area, that disposal of items from national museum and gallery collections is a matter for the trustees of the institutions concerned; they must always consider whether it is within the constraints of their governing legislation. We would all feel that benefactors of museums and galleries should be confident that their wishes will be treated with respect by the institution concerned. If there is any increasing threat that gifts and collections are likely to be disposed of, I can imagine nothing that would make it more certain that a particular museum did not receive further gifts; donations to it would totally dry up.

It is against that background that I, like my hon. Friend, am very worried to note that Derbyshire county council has recently sent 17 works from its museum service to be auctioned. This will cause a great deal of distress to many people in Derbyshire. I have no statutory power to prevent that, but it would be wholly contradictory to the Museums Association code of practice if the proceeds from the disposal of those items were used for any purpose other than the purchase of additional items.

I would add for the future that, if this were to continue to happen, and if the Derbyshire museums were registered—as my hon. Friend the Member for Battersea will know, we are proceeding with registering all museums through the Museums and Galleries Commission—but then disposed of items in this manner, they would be de-registered and thus not be eligible for any of the moneys or grants available through the Museums and Galleries Commission, either from my office or from the Wolfson charities. That would be a considerable penalty and inhibition for them.