Part of the debate – in the House of Commons at 7:37 pm on 28 February 1991.
I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Alyn and Deeside (Mr. Jones) for his remarks about Community Activities and Training in Ogmore, commonly called CATO. I make no excuse for concentrating my remarks on the training and enterprise council's decision not to renew CATO's contract. Earlier today there was a deputation from the Ogmore constituency, the borough of Ogwr, Aberavon and from other areas where the TECs have taken similar decisions, not only in Mid Glamorgan but in West and South Glamorgan.
I wish that I had more time today to refer to phase two of the Princess of Wales hospital, which has been swept under the carpet for the next 10 years, and to say why the Secretary of State should reconsider that matter. I want to concentrate also on opencast development at St. John's colliery at Maesteg, and to mention unemployment, the escalating bankruptcies and so on which are affecting all the people of Wales, particularly in my constituency.
I must concentrate on CATO, as it is an organisation to whose development I and five other directors have given 10 years of our spare time. I have put this on record previously, but I intend to do so again. CATO was formed in 1981. In June of that year, the company gained a contract with the Manpower Services Commission—which the Labour Government set up—for 13 weeks. The contract provided for 70 places, and CATO received £3,000. In 1988, when the Manpower Services Commission contracts ended, CATO had successfully carried out a contract providing 500 places, to which the company received £3 million.
In 1988, at the end of the community programme. and with the start of employment training, CATO became an employment training manager, with 300 places. This scheme, like its predecessor, was Government—funded. Under the employment training programme, CATO had a successful first 18 months, at which point the overseeing body changed from the Training Agency to the training and enterprise council. Within six months, CATO found out that from 31 March 1991 the company would receive no further funding.
As a company, CATO has had nothing but success in the last 10 years. That success has included results in the examinations of City and Guilds of London Institute, Royal Society of Arts Associated Board and the road transport industry training board, and in examinations for training managers certificates. Many of those who are trained by CATO have obtained employment elsewhere, and even those who have achieved neither examination success nor outside employment have gained in confidence and personal effectiveness.
In the past 10 years, CATO has employed both the able-bodied and those with special needs: men and women; and people from a variety of ethnic backgrounds, it has always vigorously pursued an equal opportunities policy. As a caring company, it has also been much involved in the life of the valley, and has worked for the disabled and the elderly. If CATO were to close, the Age Concern lunch clubs in the valleys would be unable to provide 7,000 meals a year, and 140 clients who are catered for at the caring unit at Blackmill would have to be referred back to the social services system. In addition, 13,000 to 20,000 people in the borough of Porthcawl would cease to have meals provided.
We acquired the Blackmill hospital after a fight lasting two years. That hospital, together with five others, was to be closed. We, as a training organisation, took it over for the purpose of training carers and caterers, and in one wing of the hospital we provided catering facilities for elderly people in the Ogmore valley. On numerous occasions I have placed on record the work of training managers and the problems and changing difficulties that they have had to overcome in the past 10 years. I speak with full knowledge of how schemes are allowed to progress, of the difficulties that they have had to survive, and of the headaches and heartaches that arise when new schemes are introduced—especially when, as of late, they are underfunded.
How can the Government expect the standard of training to be higher when funding is lower? Of course we welcome budget increases, such as were announced on Tuesday and today. Of course we welcome more funds for training, including training under TECs. However, I ask the Secretary of State for Wales whether he thinks that £8 million out of the £120 million announced on Tuesday is a fair share for Wales. Will that £8 million save 40 jobs and 200 training positions in CATO? Will it help to save 20 jobs and 100 training positions provided by the Mid Glamorgan county council, whose loss was announced in last Thursday's South Wales Echo? Will it help to save the thousands of training jobs that will be lost as a result of cuts in the TEC budget?
The training managers in Mid, West and South Glamorgan are all complaining of cuts. Will this £8 million save their organisations? In particular, will it save the jobs of devoted trainers—people who have given up time and have spent effort and energy on study so that they might train people whom jobcentres and others consider to be untrainable? As a result of the efforts of these trainers, the "untrainable" people go into the community and get jobs.
The purpose of the local community initiative that started in CATO was to beat the problem of unemployment created in 1979 after my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Aberavon (Mr. Morris) left the Welsh Office. My right hon. and learned Friend represented a constituency next to mine. We had a travel-to-work area based on Aberavon. In 1979, the rate of unemployment was 3·7 per cent. Of those unemployed people, 1·7 per cent., or more, were unemployed because they were suffering from pneumoconiosis; 1 per cent. were construction workers, who could not be employed; and 1 per cent. were people who would not normally look for jobs. Overnight, 12,000 steelworkers were put out of work. In addition, 8,000 miners lost their jobs as a result of colliery closures.
Something had to be done. Community Activities and Training in Ogmore was formed as a registered charity—with no payment for directors, no vested interests, no remuneration, no handouts. That is very different from the situation under the present TECs, where directors are compelled to have vested interests. If people did not have vested interests, they would not be put on the management boards. Speaking in a debate on 23 July 1990, which I had initiated, the hon. Member for Conwy (Sir W. Roberts) said:
I am glad to hear the hon. Member for Torfaen (Mr. Murphy) at least say that if the Opposition were returned to government, they would retain the training and enterprise councils that the Government have set up.
Let us hope that the Government will not allow the present training and enterprise councils to remain in office as the same composite bodies and with the same individuals. I predict that a Labour Government will be elected on 2 May this year. [Interruption.] I have great confidence. I look forward to a change not only in the management of TECs but also in their composition.
The Minister of State continued:
It would be unrealistic to expect the previous high level of expenditure on training to be maintained while unemployment has fallen dramatically. It is only to be expected that there should be some downward adjustment in the
Government contribution to training, simply because fewer people now need support on Government training programmes. The case load is down and therefore expenditure is down. Opposition Members may find that unpalatable, but they cannot argue with the logic."—[Official Report, 23 July 1990; Vol. 177, c. 267.]
Logic suggests that, if unemployment is rising, funding should increase. Or is that too logical for the Government to comprehend? Since the Minister of State made that speech on 23 July—I realise, of course, that he was speaking at 8.55 in the morning—business failures have increased by 25 per cent. That shows the depth of the depression. With unemployment escalating out of control, what action do the Government take? We have had a £200 million cut in training and retraining and the promise of £8 million coming in. The Government cut the budget one week and put the money back into the economy the next. I could go on for some time, but I realise that other hon. Members are waiting to be called.
The Minister of State visited farmers in the Ogmore valley some time ago. My hon. Friend—soon he will be my right hon. Friend—the Member for Alyn and Deeside complimented the Minister for calling at the CATO farm. While he was there, the Minister praised people and commented favourably upon the farm's development. About two years ago he encouraged the CATO board to invest money in the farm because we were being encouraged to provide training for agriculturists and horticulturists. Now, with TECs and employment training, the Government do not want to encourage the training of agriculturists and horticulturists.
We had visits from other Ministers. I have informed the hon. Member for Teignbridge (Mr. Nicholls) that I would be mentioning his name, and he gave his full consent to my doing so. While he was at the Department of Employment, he put on record his praise for the standard of training, the standard of trainers, the diversification of routes and the high quality of CATO. He was very disappointed that the TEC had taken this unbelievable decision. He said:
I have examined in detail the meeting of the CATO Board of Directors and assessors—(Monitoring Officers), Mr. A. Woods (Quality), Mr. P. Evans (Quality), Mr. D. Gould (Health and Safety), Mr. R. Turner (Finance), and Mr. Allen Williams, the chief executive officer
of the Mid-Glamorgan TEC. He also said:
I have also examined in detail the ROTA I under ET and the 5 criteria set—and since then ROTA II and the 7 criteria that applied under TECs together with the letters sent.
The TEC chief executive, Mr. Allen Williams, replied to the CATO company secretary, who had requested details showing why the assessors decided that CATO had not met the criteria. In his letter, a copy of which I have here, Mr. Williams said:
You request a detailed reply to John McMenemy's letter of 5th December in which he responded to the ROTA II report.
You will understand, I am sure, that it is not normal practice to reply to ROTA responses.
We are talking about a training organisation which had been established for 10 years. Yet within six months of the formation of the new TEC, it is decided that the organisation will not be funded and will be wiped out of the training programme. However, it is "not normal practice" for TECs to give reasons why the organisation does not measure up to the standard set for ROTA II.
It is not a question of the standard set but of the assessors, or the monitoring officers, deciding, in their qualified opinion, whether standards are achieved. In Mid Glamorgan they are not qualified. The whole issue stinks to high heaven of political collusion—of bias against an organisation that provided quality and not only measured up to all the standards set but surpassed them with its record of achievement in getting trainees trained and qualified.
The director of Training Agency Wales, Mr. H. V. Thomas, approved and awarded ROTA I on 12 March 1990, but within three or four months, on 23 July, the TEC was formed—it was officially opened in Caerphilly in September—but after monitoring visits he did not approve ROTA II on 4 January 1991. CATO staff and trainees were told in September that their contracts would not be renewed and the monitoring officers stated that it did not matter to them that the chairman of CATO was a "bloody MP"—I use the words of the monitoring officers.
The chief executive of the TEC recently replied to numerous questions on his interpretation and the decision of his monitoring officers. I hasten to add that the TEC board of management had not been involved in the decision, as it was taken by the assessors and reported to the board meeting on 31 January. Nevertheless, it appears that the TEC board acquiesced in the assessors' decision.
In the South Wales Echo on 21 February 1991, there was an article by Margaret O'Reilly. I give her credit for a more realistic, fair, balanced and accurate report than I can credit to that egotistical, self-opinionated, self-indulgent comedian who scribbles for the Western Mail, David Cornock. It is high time that he accurately reported Parliament instead of wasting his time trying to appear intelligent and funny. Where, oh where, have the David Rossers of this world gone? When there were Welsh debates, Welsh Grand Committees and Welsh questions the Western Mail accurately reported what hon. Members said. Ever since I was a young boy, the Western Mail has been delivered to my home, and I used to read it from page one to the back page. It was never reduced to the scribble that it is now.
The report by Margaret O'Reilly states:
Councillors have demanded a Parliamentary inquiry into a Mid Glamorgan training organisation after hearing that jobs will be axed.
The Government-backed Training and Enterprise Council was launched at Caerphilly Castle by Welsh Secretary Mr. David Hunt amid a blaze of publicity in September.
The vision was one of turning the county into a dynamic industrial area with standards of living to compare with the highest in Europe.
Less than six months later, Mid Glamorgan councillors are furious that one of the council's own schemes had its contract withdrawn by TEC, forcing them to sack 16 staff.
They say more redundancies are on the way and TEC officers refuse to tell them where public money is going … The TEC say they want more people to receive their training in industry or commerce but Councillor Rees said he had grave doubts. He said: 'When industry goes into recession, the first thing which goes is the training budget. They will not subsidise training as we are doing. We have asked for the names of these companies so we know where public money is going but they have refused. Secrecy only raises suspicions in people's minds.'
Education chairman Councillor Dennis Philpin called for a Parliamentary investigation into the running of the TEC. He asked, 'Is the money going into firms to stop them failing or to help them afford to send up balloons with their name on them? I find the whole thing absolutely deplorable and am furious for training in Mid Glamorgan.'
TEC product director Mr. Gary Owen said … 'We are trying to find the right mix which meets the needs of young people, not the needs of training providers.'
That press cutting refers to Mid Glamorgan county council demanding a parliamentary inquiry into the Mid Glamorgan TEC and states that one of the council's schemes had its contract withdrawn forcing the sacking of 16 staff, with more redundancies on the way. Yes, we can close CATO down, but it is difficult to close down the county council, although I know that some people have high hopes, as devolution is now on the political agenda again.
One paragraph of the report tells us:
They say more redundancies are on the way and TEC officers refuse to tell them where public money is going.
We want a public inquiry, so that we can find out where every penny spent by the Mid Glamorgan, South Glamorgan and West Glamorgan TECs is going. Certainly I shall be making further inquiries.
What right have the TEC officers to refuse to tell us where they spend our money? I thought that, in this modern age, the dictators were in Iraq, not in Wales. County Councillor Denis Philpin is right: there should be a thorough parliamentary inquiry into the running of TECs. They all interpret ROTAs I and II differently. Some have understanding monitoring officers or assessors, while others have Gestapo types. Mid Glamorgan seems to have been landed with the latter type, unfortunately; but it is our money that is being spent, and we have a right to know how and where it is being spent. I look to my hon. Friend the Member for Gower (Mr. Wardell), as Chairman of the Select Committee on Welsh Affairs, to accept my request and start the investigation immediately.
I should like to hear from my hon. Friend the Member for Torfaen (Mr. Murphy), when he replies for the Opposition, a clear statement about the future of TECs after 2 May. The officers will need to be changed overnight. We have no desire to fund and encourage any clandestine organisation that will not explain in detail where it spends our money.
We also need to examine the membership of the boards of management. My hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, West (Mr. Morgan) recently referred in the House to the chairman of the South Glamorgan TEC's board. Such people are publicly in a very difficult position when they have a direct pecuniary interest; that applies to all members of the boards of TECs. I shall carry out monitoring to ensure that training places are properly balanced, and that managers keep up the standards set, supposedly, to disqualify CATO.
When I examined Mid Glamorgan TEC's board membership, I expected the members of the county council to press for their chief executive's early retirement from the board. The director of education and the Wales TUC should also seriously consider whether they want representation on such a body. I would expect the TUC representative, having read or listened to the observations of his colleagues on the county council, to consider his position seriously and ask himself whether it was in his interests to remain a member. It appears that the tail is wagging the dog. I have been informed by a reliable source—not the Western Mail reporter in the House—that last Tuesday's 8 am meeting of Mid Glamorgan TEC's board passed a motion of no confidence in its management. It seems that breakfast meetings can prove justifiably productive.
When I examined the TEC's board of management further, it did not take me long to discover which way the political balance swung. Two of the 15 members are members of the Labour party, two are county officers and the other 11, if not holding Tory party membership cards, are former Wales Tory party chairmen like Sir Donald Walters, deputy chairman of the Welsh Development Agency since 1984 and a hoard member since 1980. That is why we hear so much talk about the WDA from the Secretary of State.
Lest anyone suggest that I am exaggerating, let me mention the other 10 members. John W. Phillips is the chairman and managing director of Reliance Barker-Davies, Pontyclun. Wendy Bailey is a director of Golley Slater and Partners. John Cornwall is managing director of Fairclough Building Limited, Mid Glamorgan. David W. Free is managing director of Wolsey Electronics Pontypridd. Dennis Jessop is technical director of Hoover plc. Derek Morgan is regional director of PA Consulting Group. Peter Morgan is managing director of Catric Limited, Caerphilly. R. John Tree is chairman of Form and Surface Grinding, Pontypridd. Dick Webster is managing director of Midcast Numerical Control, Maesteg. Bob Wilson is general manager of L'Oreal, Pontyclun. How can a Tory organisation like that make any decision that can even be suggested to be non-political?
I am prompted to say all that by the Secretary of State's reply to my supplementary question. It is high time that lie took up the challenge I issued at our own breakfast meeting recently, and assessed the management of that TEC. If anyone is to assess any organisation, surely the least that we can expect is people who are qualified to determine whether the route taken by that organisation is acceptable to ROTA II.
I have given the Secretary of State various documents dealing with the qualifications obtained by CATO trainees in music and catering, for example. Trainees in the computer section have passed 28 examinations. Surely a full investigation is needed when unqualified people in the TECs decide that CATO, which has trained people to such high standards, should not continue.
I hope that the Secretary of State will take up more or less immediately the issues that I have raised; failing that, I hope that my hon. Friend the Member for Gower, as Chairman of the Welsh Select Committee, will do so.