– in the House of Commons at 4:43 pm on 4 July 1990.
Several Hon. Members:
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.
Mr Bernard Weatherill
, Croydon North East
I shall take the points of order, but I must point out to hon. Members that a very important debate is to follow. Therefore, I hope that those hon. Members who wish to raise points of order will have some consideration for their colleagues. I shall take first the point of order of the hon. Member for Pembroke (Mr. Bennett).
Mr Nicholas Bennett
, Pembroke
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. You will be aware that I have already given you notice of this point of order. I have also given the hon. Member for Rhondda (Mr. Rogers) notice of it, although he is not in his place now.
You will be aware, Sir, of the importance that all Back-Bench Members place on Adjournment debates. It provides us with the opportunity to raise very important Constituency issues in the House and to receive a ministerial reply. You will also be aware that, if any other hon. Member wishes to take part in the debate, he must obtain the prior permission of both the Minister and the hon. Member whose Adjournment Debate it is. I draw to your attention—they appear in today's Hansard—the events that took place last night during the Adjournment debate that I had sought and obtained on the over-the-horizon radar planning application by the Ministry of Defence for a site at St. David's in Pembrokeshire. The hon. Member for Rhondda, who may have been tired because it was a late night debate, went to the Dispatch Box as the official Opposition spokesman on defence and interrupted my speech. He was told that I was not prepared to give way on a constituency matter, but during the next 25 minutes he proceeded to disrupt the debate continually on points of order and had to be told by Mr. Deputy Speaker to sit down. A shouting match took place then. He further aggravated the matter by using an unparliamentary expression against me, which he then withdrew.
I understand that the hon. Gentleman has apologised to Mr. Deputy Speaker, but he has not apologised to me for causing such disruption. May I therefore ask you, Mr. Speaker, in the light of yesterday's events, when the Minister was unable to finish his speech and answer the points that I wished to raise on behalf of my constituents, to defend the rights of Back Benchers so that Adjournment debates can take place without interruption from Front-Bench spokesmen?
Mr Bernard Weatherill
, Croydon North East
I have read Hansard and I have discussed the matter with Mr. Deputy Speaker. What he said is plain, and I repeat that it is an hon. Member's right, if he secures an Adjournment Debate, to have full time, unless he is prepared to offer part of it to another hon. Member. Occasionally, hon. Members give way to their colleagues during an Adjournment debate, but what happened last night was not in the best traditions of the House.
Mr Michael Brown
, Brigg and Cleethorpes
Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker.
Mr Bernard Weatherill
, Croydon North East
Order. I do not think that it can be further to the point of order. The hon. Member was not concerned in that debate. I shall take another point of order from the hon. Member for Motherwell, North (Dr. John Reid).
John Reid
, Motherwell North
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. It arises out of Scottish Question Time. I regret the chaos and confusion into which those questions degenerated and the impossible position in which you have been placed. Unless the procedure is changed, the problem will arise again.
I have sympathy for my hon. Friend the Member for Midlothian (Mr. Eadie), specifically in relation to Question No. 14. The Secretary of State for Scotland came to the Dispatch Box and announced what amounted to the abandonment of half of the Law Reform (Miscellaneous Provisions) (Scotland) Bill which is at present in Committee. Two points arise out of that. First, by announcing that abandonment—a major decision—during Question Time, the Secretary of State did not permit the breadth of responses and questions that, had it been a statement, it would have merited.
The second point reflects equally on the House. Many people in Scotland cannot but regard today's announcement as a deal done outside the House—
Mr Bernard Weatherill
, Croydon North East
Order. I shall take the hon. Gentleman's first point of order, but the second one appears to be an extension of Question Time, which would be out of order. Apropos Question 14, the Secretary of State was asked if he would make a statement about part II of the Law Reform (Miscellaneous Provisions) (Scotland) Bill. It is implicit in the hon. Gentleman's point of order that, as with what happened yesterday, I have authority to say that the Secretary of State ought not to answer the question but should make a statement. I have no such authority. The Secretary of State, or any other Minister, must answer the question on the Order Paper. I judged it to be of such general importance to hon. Members with Scottish constituencies that I allowed a bit of a run on it. I am sorry that the hon. Member for Midlothian (Mr. Eadie) was distressed, but that is the reason why we did not reach his question.
Mr Brian Wilson
, Cunninghame North
Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. I assure you that nothing that I shall say implies criticism of the Chair. On the contrary; part of my anger, and that of my colleagues, is precisely due to the fact that, for the second day running, you have been placed in the same position because of the Government's conduct of business. We do not wish that to be imposed upon you.
It must have been clear to the Secretary of State for Scotland that the issues raised by his statement today went far beyond the normal scope and scale of Question Time. He chose to make a major statement by means of the mechanism of Question Time, in response to Question 14 on the Order Paper. That was clearly bound to distort Question Time, both before and after the statement. In normal circumstances, Question No. 14 might not have been reached.
In all the circumstances, was any contact made with you, Sir, by the usual channels about the manner in which the statement was to be made by the Secretary of State? If not, will you make it clear, Mr. Speaker, that what happened today was an abuse of the House which must not be repeated?
Mr Bernard Weatherill
, Croydon North East
Order. I am dealing with one point of order at a time.
Certainly it was not an abuse of the House to answer a question on the Order Paper. The hon. Gentleman mentioned the usual channels, and, as the Shadow Leader of the House said yesterday, this House proceeds by consent. On matters of this kind, it is for the usual channels to get together to decide on the best way to resolve difficulties of this kind. It is not a matter for the Chair. It puts the Chair in a difficult, if not intolerable, position if the occupant is constantly accused of failing to uphold the interests of Back Benchers because of something for which he has no direct responsibility. It is for the usual channels to resolve these matters.
Mr Michael Brown
, Brigg and Cleethorpes
Further to the point of order raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Pembroke (Mr. Bennett), Mr. Speaker. Although I was not in the House last night, you can be assured that I shall be here for the Adjournment Debate of my hon. Friend the Member for East Lindsey (Sir P. Tapsell) tomorrow on the Boundary Commission's inquiry into Lincolnshire and Humberside.
I want to raise a general point of order about Adjournment debates. In the event of an Adjournment debate being disrupted by hon. Members without the permission of the hon. Member who has that Adjournment debate, with the effect that that hon. Member loses one third of the time allocated, would it be possible to ensure that that hon. Member's Adjournment debate was extended by 10 minutes?
Mr Bernard Weatherill
, Croydon North East
That is not within our Standing Orders, and the hon. Gentleman knows it. I am glad that he will be here tomorrow night for the Adjournment Debate, and if he wishes to take part, I hope that he will seek the permission of his hon. Friend the Member for East Lindsey (Sir P. Tapsell).
Mr Michael Foot
, Blaenau Gwent
Further to the point of order about the events of yesterday and today, Mr. Speaker. Today we have seen a repetition of some of the difficulties that occurred yesterday, which caused great difficulties for the House and for you, Mr. Speaker. The reply given today by the Secretary of State for Health surely underlines how absurd it was for the Government to think that to interpolate that type of statement into Question Time was a proper way in which to deal with the House. The proceedings on the statement went on for an hour and a half and show how necessary it was for that statement to be given today. The strong expressions of opinion made yesterday by Opposition Members were directed not against you, Mr. Speaker, but against the Government for choosing to seek to make such an important statement at the end of Question Time.
What happened yesterday illustrated the seriousness of the matter, especially given that the Government pretended that there was an agreement through the usual channels when there was no such agreement. Given yesterday's events, surely it was all the more absurd, outrageous or offensive—whatever word one might choose—for the Government to come along today and repeat the offence. They made a statement in the House, even though they knew what had happened yesterday.
Even though a question was on the Order Paper, the Government have a responsibility to treat the House properly. They should have learnt from what happened yesterday and decided to make the statement about Scotland in the same way as the statement given on the health service. Surely, Mr. Speaker, you should use your influence to try to encourage the Government to treat the House fairly in such matters, particularly as we have had two examples in two days of what injury can be done if the Government do not abide by that practice.
Mr Bernard Weatherill
, Croydon North East
Order. I am indeed seeking to use what influence I have in such matters—
Mr Bob Cryer
, Bradford South
You have a lot of influence.
Mr Brian Sedgemore
, Hackney South and Shoreditch
Magisterial experience.
Mr Bernard Weatherill
, Croydon North East
I am certainly seeking to use what influence I have in such matters. Today's problem could have been avoided if an arrangement had been made through the usual channels to take the question at the end of Question Time, given that it concerned a major matter. Even though I may make such suggestions informally, I am not responsible for carrying them out.
Mr Jacques Arnold
, Gravesham
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. At the end of the debate on schools yesterday, a number of us witnessed the loutish behaviour of the hon. Member for Coventry, South-East (Mr. Nellist) towards a lady Member of the House.
Mr Bernard Weatherill
, Croydon North East
Order. Is the hon. Member sure that this is helpful to the House? If so, he should withdraw the word "loutish", which seems to be designed to encourage disruption rather than to calm the House.
Mr Jacques Arnold
, Gravesham
I withdraw that word, but I should be grateful for your guidance on what you intend to do about the physical intimidation of a lady Member of the House, my hon. Friend the Minister of State, Department of Education and Science.
Mr Bernard Weatherill
, Croydon North East
Again, I was not in the Chair at the time, but Madam Deputy Speaker dealt with it very well.
Mr Dave Nellist
, Coventry South East
Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. [HON. MEMBERS: "Apologise."] Yesterday, during the Division I crossed the Chamber and berated the Minister about young children in Coventry being taught in toilets. It has been put to me that that was intimidatory and that that was harassment. It is now being said that that harassment was physical. I wish to make it clear that it was not intended in that way. It has been put to me that I should apologise, and I accept that. I do not apologise for my speech. I think that the entire education team should resign in disgrace about our bairns in Coventry.
Mr Bernard Weatherill
, Croydon North East
If, as I judge, the hon. Gentleman has apologised to the House, I accept that. I think that Madam Deputy Speaker, who was in the Chair, would also appreciate a note from him.
George Galloway
, Glasgow Hillhead
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I seldom trouble you with points of order and hon. Members with the seniority of my hon. Friend the Member for Midlothian (Mr. Eadie) are seldom ordered out of the Chamber. Those facts demonstrate that the credibility of Scottish government was called seriously into question at Question Time. That must be a matter for you, not only because of the disruption caused before and after Question 14—as my hon. Friend the Member for Cunninghame, North (Mr. Wilson) said—but because this is a serious matter which should command your attention. A Committee is sitting upstairs dealing with important legislation, and the Secretary of State for Scotland—
Mr Bernard Weatherill
, Croydon North East
Order. This is an extension of Question Time. I am not concerned with a Committee sitting upstairs; I am concerned with what happens on the Floor of the House.
John Reid
, Motherwell North
Further to my point of order.
Mr Bernard Weatherill
, Croydon North East
Order. In relation to what happened yesterday and today, such demos do the House immeasurable harm in the eyes of the public. We are now seen on television, and such disruptions are damaging to our reputation. I also regret that the question tabled by the hon. Member for Midlothian (Mr. Eadie) was not reached, and I hope that he will come to see me about it so that I can resolve the matter with him. I cannot say any more than that.
John Reid
, Motherwell North
Further—
Mr John Marshall
, Hendon South
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. During Scottish questions, the hon. Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Maxton) called my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State a liar. One does not expect—
Mr Bernard Weatherill
, Croydon North East
Order. If he did, I did not hear it. If I had heard it, I would have caused him to withdraw it. If the hon. Gentleman heard it he should have risen immediately on a point of order and I could have dealt with it then. I cannot deal with it now. I did not hear that remark and it is not helpful to pursue it now.
Dennis Skinner
Member, Labour Party National Executive Committee
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. You have obviously been reading Hansard quite a lot lately when you have not been in the Chair. I want to draw your attention to another matter that you obviously missed when, the other night, the Government were kept up until about half-past 2. You, Mr. Speaker, will know that there is a Standing Order about Members spying strangers. It is normally used by Back Benchers in an attempt to keep open government, to frustrate a Government with a massive Majority and to stop them trampling over democracy—that is roughly it. What happened the other night—if you have not read it—
Mr Bernard Weatherill
, Croydon North East
Order. I think I can save the time of the House—I have read it. As the hon. Member for Ashfield (Mr. Haynes) said yesterday, I know a good deal of what goes on in this Chamber, even when I am not present. What is the hon. Gentleman's point of order for me?
Dennis Skinner
Member, Labour Party National Executive Committee
The point of order is this: as I explained earlier, the Standing Order is usually used by Back Benchers against the Government. Yesterday, the Government did not have 100 to closure the debate so they got a Back Bencher of their own, the hon. Member for Tatton (Mr. Hamilton), to come in and, rather surprisingly, shout "I Spy Strangers" so that they could have a vote and waste parliamentary time in order to find out whether they had got 100 Members. If that is going to happen, it is time you put a stop to it.
Mr Bernard Weatherill
, Croydon North East
Order. This is a waste of parliamentary time.
The Speaker is an MP who has been elected to act as Chairman during debates in the House of Commons. He or she is responsible for ensuring that the rules laid down by the House for the carrying out of its business are observed. It is the Speaker who calls MPs to speak, and maintains order in the House. He or she acts as the House's representative in its relations with outside bodies and the other elements of Parliament such as the Lords and the Monarch. The Speaker is also responsible for protecting the interests of minorities in the House. He or she must ensure that the holders of an opinion, however unpopular, are allowed to put across their view without undue obstruction. It is also the Speaker who reprimands, on behalf of the House, an MP brought to the Bar of the House. In the case of disobedience the Speaker can 'name' an MP which results in their suspension from the House for a period. The Speaker must be impartial in all matters. He or she is elected by MPs in the House of Commons but then ceases to be involved in party politics. All sides in the House rely on the Speaker's disinterest. Even after retirement a former Speaker will not take part in political issues. Taking on the office means losing close contact with old colleagues and keeping apart from all groups and interests, even avoiding using the House of Commons dining rooms or bars. The Speaker continues as a Member of Parliament dealing with constituent's letters and problems. By tradition other candidates from the major parties do not contest the Speaker's seat at a General Election. The Speakership dates back to 1377 when Sir Thomas Hungerford was appointed to the role. The title Speaker comes from the fact that the Speaker was the official spokesman of the House of Commons to the Monarch. In the early years of the office, several Speakers suffered violent deaths when they presented unwelcome news to the King. Further information can be obtained from factsheet M2 on the UK Parliament website.
Of a male MP, sitting on his regular seat in the House. For females, "in her place".
An adjournment debate is a short half hour debate that is introduced by a backbencher at the end of each day's business in the House of Commons.
Adjournment debates are also held in the side chamber of Westminster Hall.
This technical procedure of debating a motion that the House should adjourn gives backbench members the opportunity to discuss issues of concern to them, and to have a minister respond to the points they raise.
The speaker holds a weekly ballot in order to decide which backbench members will get to choose the subject for each daily debate.
Backbenchers normally use this as an opportunity to debate issues related to their constituency.
An all-day adjournment debate is normally held on the final day before each parliamentary recess begins. On these occasions MPs do not have to give advance notice of the subjects which they intend to raise.
The leader of the House replies at the end of the debate to all of the issues raised.
If you've ever seen inside the Commons, you'll notice a large table in the middle - upon this table is a box, known as the dispatch box. When members of the Cabinet or Shadow Cabinet address the house, they speak from the dispatch box. There is a dispatch box for the government and for the opposition. Ministers and Shadow Ministers speak to the house from these boxes.
The Deputy speaker is in charge of proceedings of the House of Commons in the absence of the Speaker.
The deputy speaker's formal title is Chairman of Ways and Means, one of whose functions is to preside over the House of Commons when it is in a Committee of the Whole House.
The deputy speaker also presides over the Budget.
To allow another Member to speak.
Ministers make up the Government and almost all are members of the House of Lords or the House of Commons. There are three main types of Minister. Departmental Ministers are in charge of Government Departments. The Government is divided into different Departments which have responsibilities for different areas. For example the Treasury is in charge of Government spending. Departmental Ministers in the Cabinet are generally called 'Secretary of State' but some have special titles such as Chancellor of the Exchequer. Ministers of State and Junior Ministers assist the ministers in charge of the department. They normally have responsibility for a particular area within the department and are sometimes given a title that reflects this - for example Minister of Transport.
The Opposition are the political parties in the House of Commons other than the largest or Government party. They are called the Opposition because they sit on the benches opposite the Government in the House of Commons Chamber. The largest of the Opposition parties is known as Her Majesty's Opposition. The role of the Official Opposition is to question and scrutinise the work of Government. The Opposition often votes against the Government. In a sense the Official Opposition is the "Government in waiting".
In a general election, each Constituency chooses an MP to represent them. MPs have a responsibility to represnt the views of the Constituency in the House of Commons. There are 650 Constituencies, and thus 650 MPs. A citizen of a Constituency is known as a Constituent
Secretary of State was originally the title given to the two officials who conducted the Royal Correspondence under Elizabeth I. Now it is the title held by some of the more important Government Ministers, for example the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs.
Question Time is an opportunity for MPs and Members of the House of Lords to ask Government Ministers questions. These questions are asked in the Chamber itself and are known as Oral Questions. Members may also put down Written Questions. In the House of Commons, Question Time takes place for an hour on Mondays, Tuesdays, Wednesdays and Thursdays after Prayers. The different Government Departments answer questions according to a rota and the questions asked must relate to the responsibilities of the Government Department concerned. In the House of Lords up to four questions may be asked of the Government at the beginning of each day's business. They are known as 'starred questions' because they are marked with a star on the Order Paper. Questions may also be asked at the end of each day's business and these may include a short debate. They are known as 'unstarred questions' and are less frequent. Questions in both Houses must be written down in advance and put on the agenda and both Houses have methods for selecting the questions that will be asked. Further information can be obtained from factsheet P1 at the UK Parliament site.
The order paper is issued daily and lists the business which will be dealt with during that day's sitting of the House of Commons.
It provides MPs with details of what will be happening in the House throughout the day.
It also gives details of when and where the standing committees and select committees of the Commons will be meeting.
Written questions tabled to ministers by MPs on the previous day are listed at the back of the order paper.
The order paper forms one section of the daily vote bundle and is issued by the Vote Office
The shadow cabinet is the name given to the group of senior members from the chief opposition party who would form the cabinet if they were to come to power after a General Election. Each member of the shadow cabinet is allocated responsibility for `shadowing' the work of one of the members of the real cabinet.
The Party Leader assigns specific portfolios according to the ability, seniority and popularity of the shadow cabinet's members.
The House of Commons votes by dividing. Those voting Aye (yes) to any proposition walk through the division lobby to the right of the Speaker and those voting no through the lobby to the left. In each of the lobbies there are desks occupied by Clerks who tick Members' names off division lists as they pass through. Then at the exit doors the Members are counted by two Members acting as tellers. The Speaker calls for a vote by announcing "Clear the Lobbies". In the House of Lords "Clear the Bar" is called. Division Bells ring throughout the building and the police direct all Strangers to leave the vicinity of the Members’ Lobby. They also walk through the public rooms of the House shouting "division". MPs have eight minutes to get to the Division Lobby before the doors are closed. Members make their way to the Chamber, where Whips are on hand to remind the uncertain which way, if any, their party is voting. Meanwhile the Clerks who will take the names of those voting have taken their place at the high tables with the alphabetical lists of MPs' names on which ticks are made to record the vote. When the tellers are ready the counting process begins - the recording of names by the Clerk and the counting of heads by the tellers. When both lobbies have been counted and the figures entered on a card this is given to the Speaker who reads the figures and announces "So the Ayes [or Noes] have it". In the House of Lords the process is the same except that the Lobbies are called the Contents Lobby and the Not Contents Lobby. Unlike many other legislatures, the House of Commons and the House of Lords have not adopted a mechanical or electronic means of voting. This was considered in 1998 but rejected. Divisions rarely take less than ten minutes and those where most Members are voting usually take about fifteen. Further information can be obtained from factsheet P9 at the UK Parliament site.
The term "majority" is used in two ways in Parliament. Firstly a Government cannot operate effectively unless it can command a majority in the House of Commons - a majority means winning more than 50% of the votes in a division. Should a Government fail to hold the confidence of the House, it has to hold a General Election. Secondly the term can also be used in an election, where it refers to the margin which the candidate with the most votes has over the candidate coming second. To win a seat a candidate need only have a majority of 1.
Anyone who isn’t an MP or a parliamentary official is known as a stranger. Nowadays, strangers can watch debates, and can sit in the Strangers’ Gallery.
Historically, strangers were not allowed in and Parliament still has the right to debate in Private.
Any stranger causing a disturbance can be thrown out, or even taken into custody by the Serjeant at Arms.
As the House of Commons rarely goes into private session (not since the Second World War), an attempt to exclude strangers is usually only employed as a device to disrupt or delay the House’s proceedings.
An MP wishing to interrupt a debate shouts: ‘I Spy Strangers’.
The Speaker must then immediately put the motion ‘That strangers do now withdraw’. If the motion is carried the galleries -including the press gallery- are cleared and the business continues in private.
In the 1870s an Irish Nationalist MP caused the Prince of Wales to be removed by using this method.
A Backbencher is a Member who holds no official position in government or in his or her party. Back benchers sit on the back benches in the Chamber.
