– in the House of Commons at 4:45 pm on 25 October 1989.
Mr Timothy Devlin
, Stockton South
4:45,
25 October 1989
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Have you received a report of the events last night, which meant that consideration of the Children Bill was not completed because of the activities of hon. Members from mining areas, as Opposition Front-Bench spokesmen have admitted? It is an important measure which has been supported by both sides of the Committee. It represents thousands of hours of work by responsible children's organisations. It now appears that it will be lost because of the activities of certain Opposition Members.
Mr Bernard Weatherill
, Croydon North East
Order. Perhaps it would be helpful if I were to deal with this matter straight away.
Dennis Skinner
Member, Labour Party National Executive Committee
Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker.
Mr Bernard Weatherill
, Croydon North East
Order. If I clear up the matter, the hon. Member may not need to raise his point of order.
Mr Bernard Weatherill
, Croydon North East
I understand that there was some delay last night in the completion of the Children Bill. I am not aware and it has not yet been reported to me that anything out of order took place.
Dennis Skinner
Member, Labour Party National Executive Committee
It is unfortunate that the hon. Member for Stockton, South (Mr. Devlin) did not stay to hear the debate last night. If he had, he would have heard an honest-to-goodness debate about the Government forcing pre-school playgroups to pay for licensing and inspection. Several Tory, Labour and Liberal Members—no mining Member of Parliament whatever—took part in the debate. There were 400 Government amendments. The Government's troops, including the hon. Gentleman, went home to bed with the result that the Children Bill was lost because the Government spokesmen pulled up the stumps.
Dennis Skinner
Member, Labour Party National Executive Committee
This is important. The hon. Gentleman has made an allegation.
Mr Bernard Weatherill
, Croydon North East
Order. I have read about the proceedings, so I do not need to be told about them. As far as I am aware, nothing out of order took place.
Mr Roger Sims
, Chislehurst
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Can you confirm, because it is not clearly understood outside the House, that any measure before the House must pass through all its stages, with amendments passed by both Houses, before it becomes law and that any Bill that does not do so by the time that Parliament prorogues falls? Are you aware that, as a result of what happened last night, there is a real danger that this Bill could suffer that fate? The Bill has had all-party support and its implementation is anxiously awaited by many caring organisations. Do you agree that if that were to happen it would not only be deplorable but would inflict great damage on the reputation of Parliament, which I know that you are anxious to guard?
Several Hon. Members:
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.
Mr Bernard Weatherill
, Croydon North East
I will take all the points of order together.
Alan Williams
, Swansea West
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Unlike anyone else, you, Sir, have the privilege of reading what happened. The way in which Hansard is published means that anyone who hears this exchange will not have read what happened. It is important that we are allowed to put the record straight. It is not good enough for part-time Tory Members—[Interruption]—who are so dedicated to the legislation that they sneak off home as soon as the three-liner is concluded to attack the Opposition when the Government's incompetence in drafting their legislation led to 400 amendments which had to be dealt with in 12 hours, or at the rate of 40 per hour, or one every two minutes. As we stayed to discuss them, we do not accept the hon. Gentleman's criticism.
Several Hon. Members:
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.
Mr Bernard Weatherill
, Croydon North East
Order. These are not matters of order, although they may be matters of disagreement across the House.[Interruption.] Order. I have already said that what the right hon. Member for Swansea, West (Mr. Williams) has said is absolutely right, in procedural terms. What happened last night was in order, although it may have been unfortunate.
Mr Nicholas Bennett
, Pembroke
I was here at 1.50 am, and raised the matter with Mr. Deputy Speaker at the time. What happened last night was that a Division was forced by the hon. Members for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner) and for Doncaster, North (Mr. Welsh), in which no hon. Member voted with the Noes. It was clear that the intention was to force Divisions on numerous later amendments on which there is no disagreement, to keep the House here throughout today, if necessary, and lose today's business.
The hon. Member for Monk lands, West (Mr. Clarke) said last night:
when other reasonable hon. Members representing mining areas feel it necessary to demonstrate as they have done …".
"As they have done": the Opposition Front-Bench spokeman admitted that that was what was going on. The Opposition, having reached an agreement with the Government on a Bill that is not contentious—for there is general agreement that child abuse must be dealt with as quickly as possible—welshed on that agreement. They cannot control a small minority of mavericks. Is it not time that the House ruled on whether Divisions should take place when there is no disagreement and no hon. Member votes with the Noes, merely to obstruct a Bill for other purposes?
Robert Key
, Salisbury
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. You will know how rare it is for a Back Bencher to persuade the Government to accept an Amendment. After many hours of debate with hon. Members on both sides of the House, I was able to do so, and the amendment was passed unopposed on Report. Now we see that it is about to be lost. In such circumstances, is it in order for hon. Members on both sides of the House to approach the Leader of the House to seek a guillotine on the business as soon as possible?
Mr Frank Haynes
, Ashfield
You know, Mr. Speaker, they are a mardy lot over there—and they are being really deceitful this afternoon. [Interruption.]
Mr Bernard Weatherill
, Croydon North East
Order. As I think the hon. Gentleman knows, that word is not parliamentary. Will he please withdraw it?
Mr Frank Haynes
, Ashfield
In your interests and no one else's, Mr. Speaker, I will withdraw it.
We could have got that Bill last night. Both sides of the House wanted it, but the Government Chief Whip came to the Chair and said, "I am going to move the closure," so the Government did it. They all wanted to go to bed, that was the trouble.
Mr Geoffrey Howe
, East Surrey
Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. One feature is, I think, central to the whole discussion. The Children Bill commands widespread support throughout the House. It is a good Bill, widely commended, and last night—I was here and the Shadow Leader of the House was not—the Opposition Front-Bench spokesman left us in no doubt about his anxiety to see it passed. [Interruption.]
Mr Geoffrey Howe
, East Surrey
As is not unusual, the usual channels had made arrangements for the Bill to be discussed, and the expectation—settled and firm on both sides—was that it would be finished by a reasonable hour. That progress, however, was not made. As one of my hon. Friends has pointed out, a Division took place in which no Opposition Member voted, and the Opposition Front-Bench spokesman expressed his regret that progress had been impeded for the reasons already given. In those circumstances, there was no prospect of progress being made along the lines previously foreshadowed. My right hon. and learned Friend the Chief Whip therefore prudently said, "Let us draw stumps tonight and see whether we can make a better attempt at it on a future occasion."
The proof of the pudding may be, to a significant extent, in the eating of today's business. Let us see whether we can make sensible headway with that, as foreshadowed through the usual channels. Then we may be able to return to the other matter coolly, and fulfil what the people of this country expect—the enactment of the Children Bill, containing many Government amendments in response to the debate that has taken place.
The Speaker is an MP who has been elected to act as Chairman during debates in the House of Commons. He or she is responsible for ensuring that the rules laid down by the House for the carrying out of its business are observed. It is the Speaker who calls MPs to speak, and maintains order in the House. He or she acts as the House's representative in its relations with outside bodies and the other elements of Parliament such as the Lords and the Monarch. The Speaker is also responsible for protecting the interests of minorities in the House. He or she must ensure that the holders of an opinion, however unpopular, are allowed to put across their view without undue obstruction. It is also the Speaker who reprimands, on behalf of the House, an MP brought to the Bar of the House. In the case of disobedience the Speaker can 'name' an MP which results in their suspension from the House for a period. The Speaker must be impartial in all matters. He or she is elected by MPs in the House of Commons but then ceases to be involved in party politics. All sides in the House rely on the Speaker's disinterest. Even after retirement a former Speaker will not take part in political issues. Taking on the office means losing close contact with old colleagues and keeping apart from all groups and interests, even avoiding using the House of Commons dining rooms or bars. The Speaker continues as a Member of Parliament dealing with constituent's letters and problems. By tradition other candidates from the major parties do not contest the Speaker's seat at a General Election. The Speakership dates back to 1377 when Sir Thomas Hungerford was appointed to the role. The title Speaker comes from the fact that the Speaker was the official spokesman of the House of Commons to the Monarch. In the early years of the office, several Speakers suffered violent deaths when they presented unwelcome news to the King. Further information can be obtained from factsheet M2 on the UK Parliament website.
The Opposition are the political parties in the House of Commons other than the largest or Government party. They are called the Opposition because they sit on the benches opposite the Government in the House of Commons Chamber. The largest of the Opposition parties is known as Her Majesty's Opposition. The role of the Official Opposition is to question and scrutinise the work of Government. The Opposition often votes against the Government. In a sense the Official Opposition is the "Government in waiting".
A Member of Parliament (MP) is elected by a particular area or constituency in Britain to represent them in the House of Commons. MPs divide their time between their constituency and the Houses of Parliament in London. Once elected it is an MP's job to represent all the people in his or her constituency. An MP can ask Government Ministers questions, speak about issues in the House of Commons and consider and propose new laws.
The political party system in the English-speaking world evolved in the 17th century, during the fight over the ascension of James the Second to the Throne. James was a Catholic and a Stuart. Those who argued for Parliamentary supremacy were called Whigs, after a Scottish word whiggamore, meaning "horse-driver," applied to Protestant rebels. It was meant as an insult.
They were opposed by Tories, from the Irish word toraidhe (literally, "pursuer," but commonly applied to highwaymen and cow thieves). It was used — obviously derisively — to refer to those who supported the Crown.
By the mid 1700s, the words Tory and Whig were commonly used to describe two political groupings. Tories supported the Church of England, the Crown, and the country gentry, while Whigs supported the rights of religious dissent and the rising industrial bourgeoisie. In the 19th century, Whigs became Liberals; Tories became Conservatives.
The Deputy speaker is in charge of proceedings of the House of Commons in the absence of the Speaker.
The deputy speaker's formal title is Chairman of Ways and Means, one of whose functions is to preside over the House of Commons when it is in a Committee of the Whole House.
The deputy speaker also presides over the Budget.
The House of Commons votes by dividing. Those voting Aye (yes) to any proposition walk through the division lobby to the right of the Speaker and those voting no through the lobby to the left. In each of the lobbies there are desks occupied by Clerks who tick Members' names off division lists as they pass through. Then at the exit doors the Members are counted by two Members acting as tellers. The Speaker calls for a vote by announcing "Clear the Lobbies". In the House of Lords "Clear the Bar" is called. Division Bells ring throughout the building and the police direct all Strangers to leave the vicinity of the Members’ Lobby. They also walk through the public rooms of the House shouting "division". MPs have eight minutes to get to the Division Lobby before the doors are closed. Members make their way to the Chamber, where Whips are on hand to remind the uncertain which way, if any, their party is voting. Meanwhile the Clerks who will take the names of those voting have taken their place at the high tables with the alphabetical lists of MPs' names on which ticks are made to record the vote. When the tellers are ready the counting process begins - the recording of names by the Clerk and the counting of heads by the tellers. When both lobbies have been counted and the figures entered on a card this is given to the Speaker who reads the figures and announces "So the Ayes [or Noes] have it". In the House of Lords the process is the same except that the Lobbies are called the Contents Lobby and the Not Contents Lobby. Unlike many other legislatures, the House of Commons and the House of Lords have not adopted a mechanical or electronic means of voting. This was considered in 1998 but rejected. Divisions rarely take less than ten minutes and those where most Members are voting usually take about fifteen. Further information can be obtained from factsheet P9 at the UK Parliament site.
A Backbencher is a Member who holds no official position in government or in his or her party. Back benchers sit on the back benches in the Chamber.
As a bill passes through Parliament, MPs and peers may suggest amendments - or changes - which they believe will improve the quality of the legislation.
Many hundreds of amendments are proposed by members to major bills as they pass through committee stage, report stage and third reading in both Houses of Parliament.
In the end only a handful of amendments will be incorporated into any bill.
The Speaker - or the chairman in the case of standing committees - has the power to select which amendments should be debated.
The government chief whip, whose official title is parliamentary secretary to the Treasury, is appointed by the prime minister and is responsible to him.
The chief whip has to maintain party discipline and to try to ensure that members of the party vote with the government in important debates.
Along with the other party whips he or she looks after the day-to-day management of the government's business in Parliament.
The chief whip is a member of the Cabinet.
It is customary for both the government and the opposition chief whips not to take part in parliamentary debates.
The chief whip's official residence is Number 12 Downing Street.
The shadow cabinet is the name given to the group of senior members from the chief opposition party who would form the cabinet if they were to come to power after a General Election. Each member of the shadow cabinet is allocated responsibility for `shadowing' the work of one of the members of the real cabinet.
The Party Leader assigns specific portfolios according to the ability, seniority and popularity of the shadow cabinet's members.
