Rating Reform

Oral Answers to Questions — Environment – in the House of Commons at 12:00 am on 25 January 1989.

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Photo of Mr Matthew Carrington Mr Matthew Carrington , Fulham 12:00, 25 January 1989

To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what a typical ward sister would pay (a) in rates, (b) in community charge and (c) in a system of capital value rates plus local income tax paid in the proportions of 80–20, respectively, if she lived in a typical one-bedroom flat in Fulham.

Photo of Mr Dudley Fishburn Mr Dudley Fishburn , Kensington

To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what a typical ward sister would pay (a) in rates, (b) in community charge and (c) in a system of capital value rates plus local income tax paid in the proportions of 80–20, respectively, if she lived in a typical one-bedroom flat in Kensington.

Photo of Hon. Nicholas Ridley Hon. Nicholas Ridley , Cirencester and Tewkesbury

A ward sister earning £15,000, living in a flat in Fulham worth £70,000 with a rateable value of £300, would pay a rates bill of £684, a community charge of £473—disregarding the transitional safety net—and £1,470 under a system of capital value rates plus local income tax. A ward sister living in Kensington in similar circumstances would pay a rates bill of £297, a community charge of £340 and £1,060 under a system of capital value rates plus local income tax.

Photo of Mr Matthew Carrington Mr Matthew Carrington , Fulham

Does my right hon. Friend agree that those figures show the unfairness of the capital value rating system and the hardship that it would cause to people with average or below average earnings in Fulham—particularly if we take into account that it would apply to those in rented homes as well as to owner-occupiers? Does he agree that the community charge provides by far the best hope for inner-city regenerating and is a much fairer system?

Photo of Hon. Nicholas Ridley Hon. Nicholas Ridley , Cirencester and Tewkesbury

I agree with my hon. Friend. I should be delighted to exemplify for every right hon. and hon. Member the figures under a system of capital value rates plus local income tax that would apply in any local authority in their constituencies. I offer that as a free service for the information of the public at large.

Photo of Mr Dudley Fishburn Mr Dudley Fishburn , Kensington

Does my right hon. Friend agree that the figures that he has given really show the huge overspending by ILEA, and that once my borough of Kensington has its own educational fate in its hands we shall have not only better education but dramatic savings in that overspend which will quickly show up in a lower community charge?

Photo of Hon. Nicholas Ridley Hon. Nicholas Ridley , Cirencester and Tewkesbury

I agree. The figures for both boroughs about which I was asked show far too high a community charge because of the effects of heavy overspending by ILEA. There is, however, a difference between them. Hammersmith and Fulham is a high-spending, high rate, high community charge borough while Kensington is not. I leave hon. Members to guess why that might be so.

Photo of Mr Harry Barnes Mr Harry Barnes , North East Derbyshire

Why has the Secretary of State provided a detailed answer to the question asked by the hon. Member for Fulham (Mr. Carrington) when other hon. Members who have asked him questions about potential poll tax levels in their areas—I asked him about the charge in Derbyshire, for instance—have received no answer but have been told that the charge will be worked out by councils in due course?

Photo of Hon. Nicholas Ridley Hon. Nicholas Ridley , Cirencester and Tewkesbury

I shall be delighted to give the hon. Gentleman detailed figures for any authorities, including his own district and county councils. I will write to him with the figures for the community charge and for local income tax plus capital value rates payable in his constituency. I shall he happy to send the figures to any

Photo of Mr Brian Wilson Mr Brian Wilson , Cunninghame North

Leaving aside the nonsensical statistics that the Minister quoted, will nursing sisters in Kensington and Chelsea be interested in the welfare, under the poll tax, of sick people in those areas? Does he intend to follow the lead of his right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland by imposing the poll tax on people suffering from Alzheimer's disease and other forms of degenerative dementia who are cared for in their own homes?

Photo of Hon. Nicholas Ridley Hon. Nicholas Ridley , Cirencester and Tewkesbury

I confirm that my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland and I have made careful provision to ensure that generous rebates are available for up to 9 million people who are not in a financial position to pay the community charge.

Photo of Mr Brian Wilson Mr Brian Wilson , Cunninghame North

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. In view of the unsatisfactory nature of that answer, I shall seek to raise the matter on the Adjournment of the House.

Photo of Mr Bernard Weatherill Mr Bernard Weatherill , Croydon North East

Order. Such applications should come from the Member who asked the question.

Photo of Patrick McLoughlin Patrick McLoughlin , West Derbyshire

Bearing in mind what my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State said to the hon. Member for Derbyshire, North-East (Mr. Barnes), will he point out in his letter that Derbyshire has gone from being the 30th highest rated council to being the highest rated council? Most people in Derbyshire cannot wait for the new system to come in so that there can be local accountability. Will my right hon. Friend ensure that the information that he sends to the hon. Member for Derbyshire, North-East is also supplied to all other Derbyshire Members?

Photo of Hon. Nicholas Ridley Hon. Nicholas Ridley , Cirencester and Tewkesbury

With pleasure. I suggest that the hon. Member for Derbyshire, North-East (Mr. Barnes) should urge those on the Opposition Front Bench to choose this subject for a Supply day debate. That may be helpful to the hon. Gentleman's constituents.

Hon. Members:

Now we shall get the truth.

Photo of Mr Bernard Weatherill Mr Bernard Weatherill , Croydon North East

Order. We are making very slow progress.

Photo of Dr Jack Cunningham Dr Jack Cunningham Shadow Secretary of State, Shadow Secretary of State for Environment

If the Secretary of State is so confident about public support for the poll tax, why has he postponed his poll tax propaganda campaign until after the county council elections? Is he not aware that his deliberately rigged and exaggerated figures have no basis in fact and no credibility? They are dishonest and a deliberate distortion. How could a typical ward sister in Fulham, who would earn £12,000 on average and not £15,000 as the Secretary of State suggested, afford a £100,000 house, which is nearer the average? How could she afford a mortgage for that amount? Is he aware that the Opposition are not prepared to take any lessons about local government finance from a Secretary of State who appoints as Minister for Local Government the right hon. Member for Suffolk, Coastal (Mr. Gummer) whose own local council has the worst record on rates increases of any Tory authority in England? There have been rates increases of 218 per cent. under the Tories.

Photo of Hon. Nicholas Ridley Hon. Nicholas Ridley , Cirencester and Tewkesbury

I must say that that is very unjust. I wrote to the hon. Gentleman on 28 October asking him for details of the scheme for capital value rates and local income tax and the assumptions upon which to base the figures. I have not yet had an answer. If the hon. Gentleman had written to me and I had not replied for such a long time I would be in real trouble. The hon. Gentleman does not even answer his letters because he knows that he does not want these matters exposed. 'We shall expose his little wheeze on capital value rates and local income tax. I invite my hon. Friends to put down questions on those matters because there is much good material there. The hon. Gentleman made two small mistakes. First, he does not seem to realise that we put up nurses' pay by a large amount. Secondly, I did not say £100,000—I said £70,000.