Orders of the Day — Obscene Publications Bill

Part of the debate – in the House of Commons at 1:30 pm on 3 April 1987.

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Photo of Mr Alfred Dubs Mr Alfred Dubs , Battersea 1:30, 3 April 1987

Debates are good, and if they make the BBC and the IBA think harder, that is a desirable outcome. It is the Bill that may not be a desirable outcome.

The danger, which the Minister mentioned, is that the BBC and the IBA will say, "The legislation is a sanction, so we need not worry so much about our guidelines." That would weaken the existing controls on the type of material that is put out. The consequence of the Bill would thus run counter to the hon. Gentleman's aims. That is another reason why I think that it goes down the wrong path.

I should much prefer us to say to the broadcasting authorities, "We do not like your guidelines; we want them tightened up." That would be a much better way of doing things, because the guidelines have the flexibility that no amount of drafting skill can achieve in legislation. That is why we are not of one mind on what we all object to.

I appreciate that hon. Members do not wish to hear a list of swear words; that would not be appropriate. Nevertheless, the programme producers need to know whether "bloody", or a certain type of scene, is permissible. Otherwise, how can they control the material that we see?

If the words in the Bill, and the speech by the hon. Member for Cannock and Burntwood, are not clear enough, we shall confuse the television producers and the broadcasting authorities who must decide whether the material should go out; we shall also cause confusion in the minds of the police, magistrates and juries. If we are not clear, how can they understand what we are talking about?

The hon. Member for Cannock and Burntwood did not make his position clear to me. One outcome of his argument, and of the Bill as drafted, is that because children can view anything that appears on television at any time of the day or night — whether on videos or directly — pressure will be put on the broadcasting authorities to keep in mind the likelihood that children are watching. I should not like children to be exposed to some of the material that is shown—quite rightly—in the late evening, but in the real world that cannot always be prevented. I should not like the more adult programmes that we can see later in the evenings on all four channels to be banned because children might be watching them.

We did not face that dilemma before television, because cinema classification worked fairly effectively, although, of course, children found it a challenge to go into films that they were not allowed to attend, and in most cinemas it was fairly easy for them to do so. We had controls then, at least in theory. Now we do not have them even in theory, except parental influence and sanctions which, as we know, are fairly difficult to apply.

There is a weakness in our approach, and we must resolve it. We cannot lay down legislation while saying, "We do not know what we will do about children. On the one hand, they should not watch; on the other hand, we concede that they are going to." We must decide, as a society, whether television should, at some time in the evening, show programmes for adults and run the risk that children may be watching.

My approach would be to remain in dialogue with the BBC and the IBA to ensure that the guidelines do what we believe they ought to do. If we do not speak with one voice, the IBA and the BBC will have difficulty in responding to the criticisms of Members of Parliament and members of the public. In the past I have complained to the broadcasting authorities about the films that they have shown, and it may have helped to take some of the violence out of some of the programmes. That is the right approach.

I am concerned about the fact that there would be two separate tests: the depraved and corrupt test and the grossly offensive test. They could not easily co-exist. We should be weakening the position of juries. If police action resulted in the forfeiture of material, juries might not even be able to look at it. We should be adding a greater element of unpredictability and inconsistency to what is already a difficult area. We might therefore be asking of the broadcasting authorities more than is reasonable.

I dislike violence on the television screen; I think that there is too much of it. However, by exerting pressure on the broadcasting authorities, I hope that we shall be able to reduce it.

One of the few television serials that I watched from start to finish was "The Singing Detective". The day after the scene referred to by the hon. Member for Cannock and Burntwood, I was astonished to find that it was the subject of speculation in the press and complaints. It is right that hon. Members should realise that there are differences of view about it. My view is that, set in context, it was a highly moral scene. A young boy saw his mother having sexual intercourse in the woods and was shaken by what he saw. From that point onwards in the serial one was aware of the traumatic effect that it had had on that young boy. The net effect of that scene, in context, was highly moral, and it takes a rather dirty mind to see it differently.

One consequence of the Bill would be that the publicity about AIDS would lack the freedom that it now has. There are people who believe that the answer to AIDS is one sexual partner, or abstinence from sexual activity. The policies of other people, such as the Secretary of State for Social Services, are more liberal. However, I fear that some of the useful publicity on television would no longer be permitted.

I echo what was said by my hon. Friend the Member for Bow and Popular (Mr. Mikardo) that Bills, year after year, on this important subject do not lead to sensible discussion and to the right answers. The starting point is whatever the private Member chooses to include in his Bill. We are not generating as much light as we should in such a difficult area. I should prefer a new Williams committee, or a Royal Commission, or another body to set out all the arguments relating to television, after which the House and the country would decide.