Only a few days to go: We’re raising £25,000 to keep TheyWorkForYou running and make sure people across the UK can hold their elected representatives to account.

Donate to our crowdfunder

Rates: Maximum Limit

Orders of the Day — Local Government Finance Bill – in the House of Commons at 11:30 pm on 26th January 1987.

Alert me about debates like this

Amendment proposed: No. 189, in page 12, line 8, leave out '1·025' and insert '1·04.'.—[Mr. Galley.]

Question put, That the amendment be made:—

The Committee divided: Ayes 166, Noes 232.

Division No. 73][11.45 pm
AYES
Abse, LeoCorbett, Robin
Adams, Allen (Paisley N)Corbyn, Jeremy
Alton, DavidCraigen, J. M.
Anderson, DonaldCrowther, Stan
Archer, Rt Hon PeterCunlitfe, Lawrence
Ashley, Rt Hon JackCunningham, Dr John
Atkinson, N. (Tottenham)Davis, Terry (B'ham, H'ge H'l)
Bagier, Gordon A. T.Deakins, Eric
Banks, Tony (Newham NW)Dewar, Donald
Barron, KevinDixon, Donald
Beckett, Mrs MargaretDobson, Frank
Bell, StuartDormand, Jack
Benn, Rt Hon TonyDubs, Alfred
Bennett, A. (Dent'n & Red'sh)Dunwoody, Hon Mrs G.
Bermingham, GeraldEadie, Alex
Bidwell, SydneyEastham, Ken
Blair, AnthonyEvans, John (St. Helens N)
Boyes, RolandFaulds, Andrew
Bray, Dr JeremyField, Frank (Birkenhead)
Brown, Gordon (D'f'mline E)Fields, T. (L'pool Broad Gn)
Brown, Hugh D. (Provan)Fisher, Mark
Buchan, NormanFlannery, Martin
Caborn, RichardFoot, Rt Hon Michael
Callaghan, Jim (Heyw'd & M)Forrester, John
Campbell-Savours, DaleFoster, Derek
Canavan, DennisFoulkes, George
Carter-Jones, LewisFraser, J. (Norwood)
Clark, Dr David (S Shields)Freud, Clement
Clarke, ThomasGeorge, Bruce
Clay, RobertGilbert, Rt Hon Dr John
Clelland, David GordonGodman, Dr Norman
Clwyd, Mrs AnnGolding, Mrs Llin
Cocks, Rt Hon M. (Bristol S)Gould, Bryan
Cohen, HarryHamilton, James (M'well N)
Conlan, BernardHamilton, W. W. (Fife Central)
Cook, Frank (Stockton North)Hancock, Michael
Cook, Robin F. (Livingston)Harrison, Rt Hon Walter
Haynes, FrankPendry, Tom
Heffer, Eric S.Pike, Peter
Hogg, N. (C'nauld & Kilsyth)Powell, Raymond (Ogmore)
Holland, Stuart (Vauxhall)Prescott, John
Home Robertson, JohnRadice, Giles
Howarth, George (Knowsley, N)Randall, Stuart
Hoyle, DouglasRaynsford, Nick
Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N)Redmond, Martin
Hughes, Roy (Newport East)Rees, Rt Hon M. (Leeds S)
Hughes, Sean (Knowsley S)Richardson, Ms Jo
Hughes, Simon (Southwark)Roberts, Allan (Bootle)
Janner, Hon GrevilleRoberts, Ernest (Hackney N)
John, BrynmorRobertson, George
Jones, Barry (Alyn & Deeside)Rooker, J. W.
Kaufman, Rt Hon GeraldRoss, Ernest (Dundee W)
Lambie, DavidRowlands, Ted
Lamond, JamesSedgemore, Brian
Leadbitter, TedSheerman, Barry
Leighton, RonaldSheldon, Rt Hon R.
Lewis, Terence (Worsley)Shore, Rt Hon Peter
Litherland, RobertShort, Ms Clare (Ladywood)
Lloyd, Tony (Stretford)Short, Mrs R.(W'hampt'n NE)
Lofthouse, GeoffreySilkin, Rt Hon J.
Loyden, EdwardSkinner, Dennis
McCartney, HughSmith, C.(lsl'ton S & F'bury)
McDonald, Dr OonaghSmith, Rt Hon J. (M'ds E)
McKay, Allen (Penistone)Snape, Peter
McNamara, KevinSoley, Clive
McTaggart, RobertSpearing, Nigel
McWilliam, JohnStott, Roger
Madden, MaxStraw, Jack
Marshall, David (Shettleston)Thomas, Dafydd (Merioneth)
Martin, MichaelThomas, Dr R. (Carmarthen)
Maxton, JohnThompson, J. (Wansbeck)
Maynard, Miss JoanThorne, Stan (Preston)
Meacher, MichaelTinn, James
Meadowcroft, MichaelWarden, Gareth (Gower)
Michie, WilliamWareing, Robert
Millan, Rt Hon BruceWeetch, Ken
Mitchell, Austin (G't Grimsby)Welsh, Michael
Morris, Rt Hon A. (W'shawe)White, James
Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon)Williams, Rt Hon A.
Nellist, DavidWinnick, David
Oakes, Rt Hon GordonYoung, David (Bolton SE)
O'Brien, William
O'Neill, MartinTellers for the Ayes:
Park, GeorgeMr. Ron Davies and
Patchett, TerryMr. Derek Fatchett.
NOES
Alexander, RichardBrowne, John
Alison, Rt Hon MichaelBruinvels, Peter
Amess, DavidBuck, Sir Antony
Ancram, MichaelBudgen, Nick
Arnold, TomBulmer, Esmond
Ashby, DavidBurt, Alistair
Atkinson, David (B'm'th E)Butcher, John
Baker, Nicholas (Dorset N)Butterfill, John
Batiste, SpencerCarlisle, John (Luton N)
Bellingham, HenryCarttiss, Michael
Bendall, VivianCash, William
Benyon, WilliamChapman, Sydney
Best, KeithChope, Christopher
Biffen, Rt Hon JohnChurchill, W. S.
Biggs-Davison, Sir JohnClark, Dr Michael (Rochford)
Blackburn, JohnClark, Sir W. (Croydon S)
Body, Sir RichardClarke, Rt Hon K. (Rushcliffe)
Bonsor, Sir NicholasCockeram, Eric
Boscawen, Hon RobertColvin, Michael
Bottomley, PeterConway, Derek
Bottomley, Mrs VirginiaCoombs, Simon
Bowden, A. (Brighton K'to'n)Cope, John
Bowden, Gerald (Dulwich)Couchman, James
Boyson, Dr RhodesCranborne, Viscount
Brandon-Bravo, MartinCrouch, David
Bright, GrahamCurrie, Mrs Edwina
Brinton, TimDickens, Geoffrey
Brittan, Rt Hon LeonDicks, Terry
Brooke, Hon PeterDorrell, Stephen
Brown, M. (Brigg & Cl'thpes)Douglas-Hamilton, Lord J.
Dover, DenNewton, Tony
du Cann, Rt Hon Sir EdwardNicholls, Patrick
Dunn, RobertOnslow, Cranley
Durant, TonyOppenheim, Phillip
Dykes, HughOttaway, Richard
Eggar, TimPage, Richard (Herts SW)
Evennett, DavidPatten, Christopher (Bath)
Eyre, Sir ReginaldPatten, J. (Oxf W & Abgdn)
Favell, AnthonyPawsey, James
Forman, NigelPollock, Alexander
Forsyth, Michael (Stirling)Powell, William (Corby)
Forth, EricPowley, John
Fox, Sir MarcusPrice, Sir David
Franks, CecilProctor, K. Harvey
Garel-Jones, TristanRaffan, Keith
Glyn, Dr AlanRaison, Rt Hon Timothy
Gow, IanRathbone, Tim
Gower, Sir RaymondRhodes James, Robert
Griffiths, Sir EldonRhys Williams, Sir Brandon
Hamilton, Neil (Tatton)Ridley, Rt Hon Nicholas
Hannam, JohnRidsdale, Sir Julian
Harris, DavidRoberts, Wyn (Conwy)
Heathcoat-Amory, DavidRobinson, Mark (N'port W)
Higgins, Rt Hon Terence L.Roe, Mrs Marion
Holland, Sir Philip (Gedling)Rost, Peter
Howarth, Alan (Stratf'd-on-A)Rowe, Andrew
Howarth, Gerald (Cannock)Rumbold, Mrs Angela
Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N)Ryder, Richard
Jackson, RobertSackville, Hon Thomas
Knowles, MichaelSainsbury, Hon Timothy
Knox, DavidSayeed, Jonathan
Lamont, Rt Hon NormanShaw, Giles (Pudsey)
Latham, MichaelShaw, Sir Michael (Scarb')
Lawler, GeoffreyShelton, William (Streatham)
Lawrence, IvanShepherd, Colin (Hereford)
Leigh, Edward (Gainsbor'gh)Shepherd, Richard (Aldridge)
Lennox-Boyd, Hon MarkShersby, Michael
Lester, JimSilvester, Fred
Lightbown, DavidSkeet, Sir Trevor
Lilley, PeterSmith, Tim (Beaconsfield)
Lloyd, Sir Ian (Havant)Speed, Keith
Lord, MichaelSpeller, Tony
Luce, Rt Hon RichardSpencer, Derek
Lyell, NicholasSpicer, Jim (Dorset W)
McCrindle, RobertSpicer, Michael (S Worcs)
McCurley, Mrs AnnaSquire, Robin
Macfarlane, NeilStanbrook, Ivor
MacKay, Andrew (Berkshire)Stanley, Rt Hon John
MacKay, John (Argyll & Bute)Steen, Anthony
Maclennan, RobertStern, Michael
McLoughlin, PatrickStevens, Lewis (Nuneaton)
McNair-Wilson, P. (New F'st)Stewart, Allan (Eastwood)
McQuarrie, AlbertStewart, Andrew (Sherwood)
Madel, DavidStewart, Ian (Hertf'dshire N)
Major, JohnStradling Thomas, Sir John
Malins, HumfreyTaylor, John (Solihull)
Malone, GeraldTaylor, Teddy (S'end E)
Maples, JohnTemple-Morris, Peter
Marland, PaulTerlezki, Stefan
Marlow, AntonyThatcher, Rt Hon Mrs M.
Marshall, Michael (Arundel)Thomas, Rt Hon Peter
Mates, MichaelThompson, Donald (Calder V)
Mather, Sir CarolThornton, Malcolm
Maude, Hon FrancisThurnham, Peter
Maxwell-Hyslop, RobinTownend, John (Bridlington)
Mayhew, Sir PatrickTrippier, David
Merchant, PiersTrotter, Neville
Meyer, Sir AnthonyTwinn, Dr Ian
Miller, Hal (B'grove)van Straubenzee, Sir W.
Mills, lain (Meriden)Vaughan, Sir Gerard
Miscampbell, NormanViggers, Peter
Mitchell, David (Hants NW)Wakeham, Rt Hon John
Moate, RogerWaldegrave, Hon William
Monro, Sir HectorWalden, George
Montgomery, Sir FergusWalker, Bill (T'side N)
Morrison, Hon C. (Devizes)Waller, Gary
Moynihan, Hon C.Ward, John
Neale, GerrardWardle, C. (Bexhill)
Nelson, AnthonyWarren, Kenneth
Neubert, MichaelWatson, John
Watts, JohnWood, Timothy
Wells, Bowen (Hertford)Woodcock, Michael
Wells, Sir John (Maidstone)Yeo, Tim
Wheeler, JohnYoung, Sir George (Acton)
Whitfield, John
Whitney, RaymondTellers for the Noes:
Wiggin, JerryMr. Peter Lloyd and
Wolfson, MarkMr. Michael Portillo

Question accordingly negatived.

Amendment proposed: No. 135, in page 12, line 42, leave out '19th' and insert `20th'.—[Dr. Boyson.]

Photo of Mr John Fraser Mr John Fraser , Norwood

We would like some explanation as to why a Sunday has been substituted for a Saturday. The suspicion is that the Bill was published on 18 December and that one or two Tory authorities may have been helped by switching the date for the notification of information from a Saturday to a Sunday. We would be interested to know about those authorities which can manage to get some information to an unmanned Marsham street on a Sunday rather than a Saturday.

Photo of Dr Rhodes Boyson Dr Rhodes Boyson , Brent North

We felt that the Bill was so important that we should give it the holiness of a Sunday being built into it. The better the day, the better the deed. The basis of the Bill is that local authorities should know what rates they will have to fix for 1 April. If the Bill were not enacted, we could not give rate support grant to local authorities for 1 April and that would cause uproar the length and breadth of Britain, including all Labour authorities. The rate-capped authorities now know that there can be no change. Similarly, other authorities will know what their grant should be so that they can fix their rate. Just as the good Lord rested on a Sunday, we too shall rest having done this for the good of local government through the length and breadth of Britain.

Photo of Mr John Fraser Mr John Fraser , Norwood

We thought that it was only the chief constable of Manchester who had a message from the good Lord. We now realise that such is the state of the Department of the Environment that it has to rely upon not just temporal but divine inspiration to put together its legislation. But we do not regard that explanation as adequate. We want to know which authorities would be disadvantaged as a result of having Saturday 19 December in the Bill rather than Sunday 20 December. It is not enough simply to tell us that a kind of religious quality is now being imparted into local government legislation. That is too flippant an explanation. We want to know who gains by having Sunday instead of Saturday.

Photo of Dr Rhodes Boyson Dr Rhodes Boyson , Brent North

When a tram first brought me to the House in 1961 there were three or four postal deliveries on a Saturday. I remember my amazement when, returning home with my children to Chingford in Essex, the area to which I had moved at that time, having been boating with them, I found that at five o'clock that afternoon there was a postal delivery. Now, if I get my post at some time on a Saturday morning I have to be grateful for it. The postmen are very nice when they come, but the deliveries are not reliable.

However, I can put the mind of the House and of the hon. Gentleman at rest, because one thing that we do know is that there is no postal delivery on a Sunday and, as far as I know, neither the Secretary of State nor I was in the Department of the Environment on that day. Nobody communicated with us on that day. If the hon. Gentleman thinks that there was some subterranean advantage in doing this, it just shows how suspicious he is.

The message that we must get to the country is that just as the date is a Sunday, not a Saturday, the guillotine will fall on a Monday at 12 pm and a cheer will go up the length and breadth of the country. As we pass the Bill to another place, local authorities will know where they stand on their rates and rate capping for this year with all certainty.

Photo of Mr John Fraser Mr John Fraser , Norwood

That load of blather will not do. The Minister was asked why there was a change from a Saturday to a Sunday. We simply do not believe that kind of explanation. There must be some reason, some authority, perhaps some little favourite of the Department or the Welsh Office

It being Twelve O'clock, THE FIRST DEPUTY CHAIRMAN proceeded, pursuant to the Order this day, to put forthwith the Question already proposed from the Chair.

Amendment agreed to.

THE FIRST DEPUTY CHAIRMAN then proceeded successively to put forthwith the Questions necessary to bring the proceedings in Committee to a conclusion.

Amendments made: No. 137, in page 12, line 47, leave out '19th' and insert '20th'.
No. 139, in page 13, line 9, leave out second 'the' and insert 'an'
No. 140, in page 13, line 10, after 'charges', insert ', or by way of provision for pay and price changes, or on school meals and milk,'.—[Mr. Neubert.]Schedule 2, as amended, agreed to.