Attorney-General (Member's Reference)

– in the House of Commons at 4:48 pm on 16 December 1986.

Alert me about debates like this

Photo of Mr Bernard Weatherill Mr Bernard Weatherill , Croydon North East 4:48, 16 December 1986

Yesterday, in column 793 of Hansard the hon. Member for Workington (Mr. Campbell-Savours) cast an inadmissible reflection upon the honour of the Attorney-General. At the time I did not notice it, but having considered it carefully in Hansard this morning, I ask him, please, to withdraw it.

Photo of Mr Dale Campbell-Savours Mr Dale Campbell-Savours , Workington

I am grateful to you, Mr. Speaker, for giving me this opportunity and to the Attorney-General for being present in the House today. It is as I predicted yesterday morning: if the Attorney-General had replied for the Government in yesterday's debate, I know that the entire debate would have taken a different course. It is unfortunate that one has to deploy such an elaborate ruse to secure the attendance of the Attorney-General in the Chamber—[Interruption.]

Hon. Members:

Withdraw.

Photo of Mr Dale Campbell-Savours Mr Dale Campbell-Savours , Workington

I will deal with it in my time. [Interruption.]

Photo of Mr Bernard Weatherill Mr Bernard Weatherill , Croydon North East

Order. If the hon. Gentleman has such comments shouted at him he cannot possibly get on with his apology. Will he please get on with it?

Photo of Mr Dale Campbell-Savours Mr Dale Campbell-Savours , Workington

You asked me to withdraw, Mr. Speaker, yet the House knows that the Attorney-General had a duty to prosecute Chapman Pincher in 1981.

Photo of Mr Dale Campbell-Savours Mr Dale Campbell-Savours , Workington

It was for the Attorney-General to decide whether Pincher was prosecuted under section 2 of the Official Secrets Act or section 7 of the Official Secrets Act 1920. He failed in his duty. He had a duty to prosecute Sir Dick White and Arthur Martin. Now, five and a half years later, he says that he is considering—[Interruption.]

Photo of Mr Bernard Weatherill Mr Bernard Weatherill , Croydon North East

Order. I gave the hon. Gentleman an opportunity to withdraw the comment about the Attorney-General not to carry on the debate which took place yesterday.

Photo of Mr Dale Campbell-Savours Mr Dale Campbell-Savours , Workington

I am about to deal precisely with your request, Mr. Speaker.

It was the Attorney-General who failed to prosecute Rupert Allason and those who fed him classified material, and all the time he hides behind the skirts of the Prime Minister. [HON. MEMBERS: "Order!"]

Photo of Mr Bernard Weatherill Mr Bernard Weatherill , Croydon North East

Order. Will the hon. Gentleman now, please, withdraw his comment and, in fairness, not carry on the debate?

Photo of Mr Dale Campbell-Savours Mr Dale Campbell-Savours , Workington

You asked me, Mr. Speaker, to withdraw my accusation. Out of deference to the Chair, I unreservedly do so. The Attorney-General's honour must stand intact and I am required to accept that. As to his conduct, history will make its judgments, and such judgments may not be based on that which is published in the monthly bound volumes of the Official Report.

Photo of Eric Forth Eric Forth , Mid Worcestershire

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

Photo of Mr Robert Atkins Mr Robert Atkins , South Ribble

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

Photo of Mr Bernard Weatherill Mr Bernard Weatherill , Croydon North East

Order. The hon Gentleman has now made his withdrawal. [HON. MEMBERS: "NO."] He has. It does not help the House or its reputation to seek to continue points of order when an hon. Gentleman has done that.

Photo of Eric Forth Eric Forth , Mid Worcestershire

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

Photo of Mr Bernard Weatherill Mr Bernard Weatherill , Croydon North East

I am not taking a point of order on this matter.

Photo of Eric Forth Eric Forth , Mid Worcestershire

I am asking for your guidance, Mr. Speaker, for future occasions. When a Member of the House asks leave to withdraw a statement that he has made, will it be in order on any future occasion for such an hon. Member to use the occasion of what he claims to be a withdrawal to repeat allegations or to make other statements which are equally bad?

Photo of Mr Andrew Faulds Mr Andrew Faulds , Warley East

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, on an entirely different matter.

Photo of Alan Williams Alan Williams , Swansea West

Further to the point of order, Mr. Speaker. May I clarify your ruling? There are two specific allegations in the column referred to, one following immediately after the other. The one allegation reads: I am told that the Attorney-General is desperate for the Woolsack."—[Official Report. 15 December 1986; Vol. 107, c.793.] The second allegation relates to the 30 pieces of silver. I can understand the objection to the second section about the 30 pieces of silver.

Do we understand for the record that you, Sir, are ruling that it is in order for the allegation that the Attorney-General is desperate for the Woolsack to stand and that it is the piece in relation to the 30 pieces of silver that must be withdrawn?

Photo of Mr Bernard Weatherill Mr Bernard Weatherill , Croydon North East

Since the hon. Gentleman wants clarification on that point, I am forced to say to him that it is the last sentence to which I take exception.

Later

Photo of Mr John Taylor Mr John Taylor , Solihull

Further to the point of order made by my hon. Friend the Member for Mid-Worcestershire (Mr. Forth). Are we to take it from the earlier statement made by the hon. Member for Workington (Mr. Campbell-Savours) that we may regard what he said earlier this afternoon as a precedent for a withdrawal?

Photo of Mr Bernard Weatherill Mr Bernard Weatherill , Croydon North East

The hon. Gentleman should keep his ears open, please. I have already said no.

Photo of Mr Jerry Wiggin Mr Jerry Wiggin , Weston-Super-Mare

Further to the point of order raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Solihull (Mr. Taylor). If I understood your decision correctly, Mr. Speaker, you were in fact saying that the hon. Member for Workington (Mr. Campbell-Savours) has not made a withdrawal of what he said.

Photo of Mr Bernard Weatherill Mr Bernard Weatherill , Croydon North East

I did not say that. I said that it would not be taken as a precedent in making a withdrawal of something that had been said, and the hon. Member for Workington (Mr. Campbell-Savours) finally—

Photo of Mr Bernard Weatherill Mr Bernard Weatherill , Croydon North East

—unreservedly, withdrew what had been said. It should not be taken as a precedent to carry on a debate. I hope that the House understands that.

Photo of Mr Michael McNair-Wilson Mr Michael McNair-Wilson , Newbury

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Forgive me for not following your guidance entirely, but it seems to me that you are allowing the hon. Member for Workington (Mr. Campbell- Savours)—

Photo of Mr Bernard Weatherill Mr Bernard Weatherill , Croydon North East

Order. I have dealt with the matter [Interruption.] Order. I am not prepared to say any more about it. It is not a precedent that should be followed by any other hon. Member and I will not allow it. [Interruption.] Order. I did not know that the hon. Member for Workington (Mr. Campbell-Savours) would take as long as he did to make his withdrawal. When I saw him about this matter he told me that he would make a withdrawal, and he has done so. Let us leave it at that.

Photo of Mr Michael Havers Mr Michael Havers , Wimbledon

I should like to be in the position to thank the hon. Gentleman for his apology. You, Mr. Speaker, have ruled that this is not be be a precedent; in my view, that means that it was not a withdrawal, and I do not treat it as such. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."]

Photo of Mr Bernard Weatherill Mr Bernard Weatherill , Croydon North East

In order to clarify this matter, would the hon. Member for Workington be kind enough to repeat his unreserved withdrawal so that the House is in no doubt about it?

Photo of Mr Dale Campbell-Savours Mr Dale Campbell-Savours , Workington

I have made it very clear that I unreservedly withdraw.