National Education Council

Orders of the Day — Education Bill [Lords] – in the House of Commons at 5:45 pm on 21st October 1986.

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`(1) A National Education Council shall be established—

  1. (a) to monitor curricula, teaching methods, examinations and methods of teacher training and in-service training;
  2. (b) to assist, by co-operative study and co-ordination, the development of curricula, examinations, teaching methods and methods of teacher training and in service training;
  3. (c) to publish its reviews and report annually and to promote good practice in the areas described in paragraphs (a), (b) and (c) above;
  4. (d) to publish its reviews and report annually and to promote good practice in the
  5. (e) to assist the fostering and development of links between schools and the communities in which schools are placed.
(2) The membership of the National Education Council should be drawn in equal parts from the teachers' unions, representatives of local education authorities, the Department of Education and Science, parents' organisations and the churches.'.—[Mr. Radice.]

Brought up, and read the First time.

Photo of Mr Giles Radice Mr Giles Radice Shadow Secretary of State for Education

I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

Photo of Mr Ernest Armstrong Mr Ernest Armstrong , North West Durham

With this it will be convenient to take the following: New clause 14 —Human rights in schools'The local education authority by whom any county, voluntary or special school is maintained, and the governing body and the head teacher of the school, shall take such steps as are reasonably practicable to secure that the understanding and experience of human rights is encouraged in schools in accordance with the provisions of Schedule (Human Rights in Schools).' New clause 17—Record of achievement'The Secretary of State shall establish arrangements under which all pupils leaving school will be provided with a record of achievement which should detail successes in public examinations, educational attainments and personal qualities and should be as full a record as possible of the positive achievements of each pupil.'. New clause 35—Competitive sports`(1) Local education authorities shall ensure that each school in their area after consultation with its governing body makes proper provision for the coaching and playing, by pupils over the age of seven, of competitive sports either on their own premises or otherwise:Provided that the expenditure of a local education authority under this section in any financial year shall not exceed the product of a rate in the pound for their area determined by that authority with the approval of the Treasury for that year or, if some other amount whether higher or lower is fixed by an Order in a Statutory Instrument made by the Secretary of State, shall not exceed the product of a rate of that amount in the pound for its area for that year.(2) The product of a rate in the pound for any area shall be computed for the purposes of this section by reference to the product of the rate of 1 p in the pound for that area as determined for those purposes in accordance with the rules made under section 113(1)(c) of the General Rate Act 1967.(3) In this section "competitive sport" means sports specified by Order in a Statutory instrument by the Secretary of State after consultation with local education authorities and such persons or bodies as are, in his opinion, appropriate.(4) A Statutory Instrument containing an order under subsections (1) and (3) may apply to all local education authorities or may make different provision in relation to different local education authorities and any such instrument shall be subject to annulment in pursuance of a Resolution of either House of Parliament.'. Amendment No. 61, in clause 17, page 20, line 21, at end insert 'after consultation with headteachers, teachers, teachers' organisations and other such bodies as it sees fit to consult—'. Government Amendments Nos. 62 to 65.

Amendment No. 68, in clause 18, page 21, line 4, leave out 'in their opinion' and insert 'in the light of the principles for the curriculum set out by the local authority in pursuance of section 17(1) above'. Government Amendment No. 69.

Amendment No. 70, in clause 18, page 22, line 9, at end insert— '(d) to determine and direct the school's curriculum, in the light of the principles set out by the local authority under section 17(1) and the aims of the governing body in sections 18(1)(b), to fulfil those agreed aims.'. Government Amendments Nos. 71 and 72. Amendment No. 147. in clause 42, page 46, line 41, at end insert 'the following activities where they fall outside the statement of curriculum policy published by the local education authority under section 17 of this Act. Amendment No. 148, in clause 42, page 46, line 42, leave out paragraph (a).

Amendment No. 223, in clause 42, page 46, line 42, after 'by', insert ', or involving, or otherwise seeking to influence,'. Amendment No. 149, in clause 42, page 47, line 3, leave out subsection (2).

Government Amendment No. 151.

Amendment No. 152. in clause 43, page 47, line 19, at end insert— '(2) The local education authority, the governing body and the head teacher of the school shall take such steps as are reasonably practicable to ensure that, before pupils reach the age of 16, they shall have been given an introduction to—

  1. (i) The United Nations' Universal Declaration of Human Rights, the Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms, and the European Social Charter;
  2. (ii) the system of national and local government in this country;
  3. (iii) the views of the main, national political parties;
  4. (iv) the legal system;
  5. (v) the welfare state and the system of benefits within it;
  6. (vi) their legal and civil rights and responsibilities;
  7. (vii) the world of industry and commerce;
  8. (viii) the system of trades unions, and the rights and responsibilities of trades unions within the law; and
  9. (ix) the work of charities and the voluntary sector.'.
Amendment No. 189, new Schedule—HUMAN RIGHTS IN SCHOOLS—

1. Human rights in the school curriculum(1) The understanding and experience of human rights is an important element of the preparation of all young people for life in a democratic and pluraslistic society. It is part of social and political education, and it involves intercultural and international understanding.(2) Concepts associated with human rights can, and should, he acquired from an early stage. For example, the non-violent resolution of conflict and respect for other people can already be experienced within the life of a pre-school or primary class.(3) Opportunities to introduce young people to more abstract notions of human rights, such as those involving an understanding of philosophical, political and legal concepts, will occur in the secondary school, in particular in such subjects as history, geography, social studies, moral and religious education, language and literature, current affairs and economics.(4) Human rights inevitably involve the domain of politics. Teaching about human rights should, therefore, always have international agreements and covenants as a point of reference, and teachers should take care to avoid imposing their personal convictions on their pupils and involving them in ideological struggles.

2. SkillsThe skills associated with understanding and supporting human rights include:

  1. (a) intellectual skills, in particular:
    • —skills associated with written and oral expression, including the ability to listen and discuss, and to defend one's opinions;
    • —skills involving judgment, such as:
    • —the collection and examination of material from various sources, including the media, and the ability to analyse it and to arrive at fair and balanced conclusions;
    • —the ability to analyse it and to arrive at fair and balanced conclusions;
    • — the identification of bias, prejudice, stereotypes and discrimination;
  2. (b) social skills, in particular:
    • —recognising and accepting differences;
    • —establishing positive and non-oppressive personal relationships;
    • —resolving conflict in a non-violent way;
    • —taking responsibility;
    • —participating in decisions;
    understanding the use of the mechanisms for the protection of human rights at local, regional, European and world levels.

3. Knowledge to he acquired in the study of human rights(1) The study of human rights in schools will be approached in different ways according to the age and circumstances of the pupil and the particular situations of schools and education systems. Topics to be covered in learning about human rights could include:

  1. (a) the main categories of human rights, duties, obligations and responsibilities;
  2. (b) the various forms of injustice, inequality and discrimination, including sexism and racism;
  3. (c) people, movements and key events, both successes and failures, in the historical and continuing struggle for human rights;
  4. (d) the main international declaration and conventions on human rights, such as the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms.
(2) The emphasis in teaching and learning about human rights should he positive. Pupils may be led to feelings of powerlessness and discouragement when confronted with many examples of violations and negations of human rights. Instances of progress and success should be used.(3) The study of human rights in schools should lead to an understanding of, and sympathy for, the concepts of justice, equality, freedom, peace, dignity, rights and democracy. Such understanding should be both cognitive and based on experience and feelings. Schools should thus, provide opportunities for pupils to experience effective involvement in human rights and to express their feelings through drama, art, music, creative writing and audiovisual media.

4. The climate of the school(1) Democracy is best learned in a democratic setting where participation is encouraged, where views can he expressed openly and discussed, where there is freedom of expression for pupils and teachers, and where there is fairness and justice. An appropriate climate is, therefore, an essential complement to effective learning about human rights.(2) Schools should encourage participation in their activities by parents and other members of the community. It may well be appropriate for schools to work with non-governmental organisations which can provide information, case-studies and first-hand experience of successful campaigns for human rights and dignity.(3) Schools and teachers should attempt: to be positive towards all their pupils, and recognise that all of their achievements are important—whether they be academic, artistic, musical, sporting or practical.

5. Teacher training(1) The initial training of teachers should prepare them for their future contribution to teaching about human rights in their schools. For example, future teachers should:

  1. (a) be encouraged to take an interest in national and world affairs;
  2. (b) have the chance of studying or working in a foreign country or a different environment;
  3. (c) be taught to identify and combat all forms of discrimination in schools and society and be encouraged to confront and overcome their own prejudices.
(2) Future and practising teachers should be encouraged to familiarise themselves with:
  1. i. the main international declarations and conventions on human rights;
  2. ii. the working and achievements of the international organisations which deal with the protection and promotion of human rights, for example through visits and study tours.
(3) All teachers need, and should be given the opportunity, to update their knowledge and to learn new methods through in-service training. This could include the study of good practice in teaching about human rights, as well as the development of appropriate methods and materials.

6. International Human Rights DaySchools and teacher training establishments should be encouraged to observe International Human Rights Day (10th December).'.

Photo of Mr Giles Radice Mr Giles Radice Shadow Secretary of State for Education

I congratulate the hon. Member for Mitcham and Morden (Mrs. Rumbold) on her new appointment. We shall miss the hon. Member for Bath (Mr. Patten), but we are pleased to welcome her.

New clause 6 would establish a National Education Council on which the Secretary of State, local authorities, teachers, parents, churches and others would be represented. Hon. Members will agree that, relative to our main competitors, we are an under-educated and under-trained nation. On most indicators, whether nursery school places, the staying-on rate, the opportunities for training or qualifications at 16 and at degree level, we are well down the league table. It is clear that we need a major national effort to raise standards and improve education opportunities. A national programme on such a scale requires consensus, co-operative effort and partnership. Unfortunately, far from encouraging partnership, the Government have undermined it.

The Secretary of State, as a former Secretary of State for the Environment, bears some responsibility for the fact that the Government have been locked in conflict with local government for a number of years, mainly because the Government have deliberately starved local government of resources—a cumulative total of £17 billion has been lost from central Government support since 1979.

After at least two years of dispute and uncertainty, the teachers remain alienated and demoralised. It is not helpful that the Government have still not made their attitude clear to the Coventry heads of agreement. They must bear some responsibility for the difficulties that are now faced.

It is no wonder that parents and voters are so worried about what is happening. According to a recent poll, more that two thirds of those questioned disapproved of the Government's handling of education. There were big majorities in favour of more spending on education and only 6 per cent. believed that the Government had succeeded in raising education standards.

Far _from trying to recreate the partnership which has broken down in recent years, the Government have responded to their unpopularity by putting the blame on local education authorities and teachers. They are also attempting to distract the voters with gimmicky initiatives.

The launching of the so-called city technology colleges is typical of the Government's approach. It is interesting that the Secretary of State has not attempted to win support for the initiative. Instead, he is trying to impose the CTCs outside the local education authority system and without the backing of teachers. I believe that the CTC proposal is educationally unsound, technologically illiterate and socially divisive. If the Secretary of State had consulted the education partners, they would have told him why the proposal will do nothing to improve educational prospects, but the right hon. Gentleman is charging ahead regardless, intent only on providing his party with an electoral fig leaf.

If we are to raise standards and improve educational opportunities, we must, as a matter of urgency, reforge the educational partnership. Our system is a decentralised one and it is right that it should remain so. It would be undesirable and impracticable to try to run all our schools from Elizabeth house, which is what some Tories seem to suggest.

If we are to move forward, we need to bring together what the Secretary of State calls the users and producers in education, for the benefit of the community as a whole. That is the case for setting up a National Education Council on which the main education partners would be represented.

Photo of Mr James Pawsey Mr James Pawsey , Rugby and Kenilworth

Will the hon. Gentleman accept that the city technology colleges have received widespread approval? They will bridge the gap between industry and education and will be a useful benchmark against which other schools may be judged. The hon. Gentleman is wrong to assume that there is a feeling on the Conservative Benches that all schools should be administered from Elizabeth house. That has not been suggested.

Photo of Mr Giles Radice Mr Giles Radice Shadow Secretary of State for Education

There is a later amendment on that issue, and I think that some Conservative Members would like that system to come about.

The problem with the CTC proposal is that, because it will involve 1,000 pupils in an area where there are, say, 5,000 pupils, it is bound to cream off pupils and scarce teaching resources. Therefore, the proposal must be at the expense of other schools. The proposal has not been widely welcomed by teachers or local education authorities and doubt has been expressed by industrialists as well. I would not make the bold claim that the hon. Member for Rugby and Kenilworth (Mr. Pawsey) makes.

6.15 pm

The purpose of the National Education Council would be to get agreement on matters of major educational importance, such as the curriculum, the exam system, teacher training and minimum standards of educational provision. There is far too wide a gap between the authorities that are doing the proper job of ensuring reasonable spending and a reasonable pupil-teacher ratio and those with a much worse record. We need to get an agreement on a minimum standard of provision and a National Education Council would help us to do that.

Of course, a National Education Council could not, by itself, guarantee consensus or change, but it would make those aims far easier to achieve and would certainly offer a more constructive way forward than the authoritarian and strident approach displayed by the Prime Minister in the interview published in today's Daily Express. We need something very different from that approach. If we are to succeed, we need a new approach based on co-operation and consensus, and I believe that the setting up of a National Education Council would be an essential ingredient in that strategy.

Photo of Mrs Angela Rumbold Mrs Angela Rumbold , Mitcham and Morden

I thank the hon. Member for Durham, North (Mr. Radice) for his kind words in welcoming me to my new post in the Department. I acknowledge that it will be difficult for me to follow the high standards set by my predecessor, my hon. Friend the Member for Bath (Mr. Patten).

The hon. Member for Durham, North introduced his new clause with some interesting arguments and justifications. My experience over the past few days shows that it is typical of the Opposition to attack the imaginative city technology college initiative for the maintained sector. We rarely hear from Opposition Members about any new initiatives to help the maintained sector and improve the lot of the children in that sector.

The hon. Member for Durham, North spoke about the notion that there should be a sort of parliament for education. That proposal is included in his recent Fabian pamphlet "A Socialist Plan for Education". The proposal appears late on in the pamphlet—on page 19, I think—but it is central to his plan that we need to set up a parliament for education.

It may surprise some hon. Members, including those who serve on the Select Committee on Education, Science and the Arts, which looks at education, and whose membership includes Opposition Members, that the Opposition do not believe that the House is an adequate place to be an education parliament. That is a bit of a shame.

Of course, we recognise that education is a partnership. I have been on the other side of the partnership and often negotiated with the Government about the allocation of resources—

Photo of Mr Giles Radice Mr Giles Radice Shadow Secretary of State for Education

The hon. Lady had some tough things to say.

Photo of Mrs Angela Rumbold Mrs Angela Rumbold , Mitcham and Morden

Indeed, I did, because that was my job at the time. I have been tough about the allocation of resources and in negotiations with the teachers. All those matters continue in negotiations and in partnership with central Government. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State regularly consults his partners in the local authorities and the teachers' organisations on all these matters. He also consults a wide range of other interest groups in the education and other areas on specific policy developments, as the occasion requires. My right hon. Friend also receives advice relevant to the exercise of his functions from Her Majesty's inspectorate and other bodies such as the Secondary Examinations Council and the Schools Curriculum Development Committee, hut, of course, my right hon. Friend properly is accountable to the House. I hope that that is what we all want. Local authorities are accountable to their electorates. We support that. We do not suggest that the Department of Education and Science should do all their work. As a result of the Bill schools will be the responsibility of local authorities. There is ample space for dialogue and discussion, but no space for the new type of quango that the new clause urges upon us.

Both sides agree about some matters. I shall explain some of the useful amendments to clauses 17 to 19 which are based upon suggestions made in Committee. I shall not dwell upon them because they involve little dissent. The first group of amendments is designed to ensure that local education authority and governors' statements on the curriculum are widely and freely available. Amendments Nos. 62 to 65 and Nos. 69 and 72 secure that. Both the LEAs and the relevant governors' statements will be available for consultation in all county and controlled schools. I expect that in practice they will be more widely available, but that will depend upon local interest and other factors.

In aided schools LEA statements will always be available, but under the Bill there is no requirement that aided school governors should make any written statement of their curriculum policies. We do not intend to change that, but where governors choose to make such statements parents should have access to them. Amendment No. 72, which has been fully accepted by the churches and other voluntary school interests, secures that.

The final Government amendment, which also affects aided and special agreement schools, has been welcomed in our recent consultations. It extends to the governors of such schools the obligation to have regard to representations about the curriculum from those connected with the community served by the school. It is clearly right that the community served by an aided school should have, and be seen to have, the same right to be heard as that served by any other type of school. The new subsection (2) to clause 19 achieves this.

The small drafting amendment No. 151 improves the presentation of clause 43 and contains no changes of substance.

Photo of Bill Cash Bill Cash , Stafford

I wish to speak to new clause 35 entitled "Competitive Sports". It is supported by the Central Council for Physical Recreation which represents about 250 bodies involved in sporting activities. I am told that about 40,000 amateur football clubs, 1,500 rugby union clubs, as many as 3 million squash players and countless cricketers and others will be deeply interested in the new clause.

There is a thin red line—or perhaps a thin blue line —which one must tread in such matters. I notice that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State nods his head. I seek to be constructive. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Minister of State on her new appointment and I look for an assurance from her that what I have to say on the subject will be well received by the Government.

My argument is about competition in schools and that part of the curriculum which covers sporting activitities. It is directly related to the Government's philosophy and policy.

I can do no better than to repeat what the Secretary of State said shortly before 9 July, when he commented: Equality of opportunity means the achievers must be allowed to achieve. If you don't believe that, then everything will sink into a grey mass of mediocrity. The Secretary of State added: The world is a highly competitive place and nations which cannot compete go under. That was said not in the context of competition alone, but specifically about the absurd attempts by the Labour-controlled Inner London education authority to abolish competitive sports in schools to save the losers from humiliation. The reality is well documented in a report which appeared in the Daily Telegraph on 9 July.

Hon. Members may laugh, but I refer them to an article in The Guardian, three days later, which stated: Are Britain's teachers really as dotty as they sometimes seem? …Inner London Schools are trying to stamp out the First XI mentality by stopping inter-school football matches. Cricket is seemingly all but extinct within the state system. Rugby cannot be mentioned within politically correct society … The effects of all this are obvious. International sports success will soon be beyond the British. The leader writer in The Guardian continues: the anti-sports policy isn't carefully thought out at all … Let's leave aside the fact that the anti-team sports, anticompetitive polices are actually rather racist because they prevent activities which a lot of black children are especially keen on. He concludes: That is a truly pernicious approach and no education authority worth its salt ought to pander to the stupid teachers who support it.[Interruption.]

Before Opposition Members protest too much, I urge the hon. Member for Durham, North (Mr. Radice) to take up the matter by replying with a letter to The Guardian.

There are a number of problems connected with the provision of suitable facilities for the coaching and playing of sport in schools.

Photo of Mr Andrew Bennett Mr Andrew Bennett , Denton and Reddish

Is not one of the worst problems of our schools the circular issued by the previous Conservative Government advising local authorities, to review the number of school playing fields that they use and to sell them? Have not a substantial number of school playing fields been sold for housing, with the result that some schools no longer have the space for a cricket square and facilities for winter sports?

Photo of Bill Cash Bill Cash , Stafford

Naturally, I deplore the unnecessary disposal of playing fields.

Local authorities do not have a duty to provide adequate coaching and playing space for school sports. That is what my new clause is about. Their power is merely permissive, so they can choose whether to provide sporting facilities in schools. On many occasions they choose the easy way. That is why the new clause imposes a duty. A slippery slope is formed because no duty exists.

I believe that competitive sport is part of the curriculum, and I hope that we will legislate along the lines that I suggest.

I refer the hon. Member for Denton and Reddish (Mr. Bennett) to circular 16/78 from the Department of Education and Science, the Department of the Environment and the Welsh Office, entitled, The Development of Sporting Talent in Children of School Age which was issued by the then Labour Government. I regret that the circular has not been followed as it should have been and is regarded as unsatisfactory. Today's debate allows us to discuss competitive sports in schools and to come up with something meaningful. A duty rather than a mere power should be imposed.

6.30 pm

The CCPR represents about 250 bodies, including the Welsh Rugby Union, the Rugby Football Union, the National Cricket Association and the Amateur Athletic Association. Indeed, scarcely any body concerned with sport is not a member of the council. Bearing in mind the millions of people who take part in competitive sport, I ask my hon. Friend the Minister to take the new clause seriously, because it is consistent with the philosophy of both the Government and the Bill.

The new clause proposes consultation with governing bodies. Subject to an overall cost limitation, parents would have the legal right to tell governing bodies and head teachers of schools where competitive sports were not provided that they are required to provide them.

I believe that the new clause deserves the Government's support. If it were suggested that there should be greater business involvement in the provision of sport, I would agree; but if it were suggested that we should rely on voluntary sports clubs, I could not agree. Indeed, it may come as a shock to my hon. Friend the Minister, or to anyone who might put forward that suggestion as the panacea, to learn—as was confirmed on the radio this morning — that the increase in rates in Scotland has made it increasingly difficult for local authorities to maintain a position which enables schools to afford the provision of the required playing fields.

It is said that similar provisions will come into effect in the remainder of the country in 1990. Last weekend The Sunday Times estimated that the rates at Lords could increase from £27,000 to £500,000 in 1990. If that happened throughout the country, it would cause serious difficulties for voluntary sports organisations.

Photo of Mr Neil Macfarlane Mr Neil Macfarlane , Sutton and Cheam

My hon. Friend is advancing a most important argument. I support him wholeheartedly on the importance of the curriculum content within schools and the importance of the link that he has established. Certainly no one should overlook such an august body as the CCPR.

My hon. Friend the Minister has had a foot in both camps—in Marsham street and now south of the river—and I congratulate her on her transfer. She has a special understanding both at local authority and departmental levels. To be realistic, we shall not progress much further with the proposal tonight. However, given the degree of concern about this matter, perhaps the most important action would be to undertake a detailed survey. I suggest that from my experience in office of the confused nature of some of the statistics and the availability of facts and information I think that local education authorities, the Sports Council and the CCPR should undertake a 12-month investigation and detailed analysis.

Photo of Bill Cash Bill Cash , Stafford

I am grateful for my hon. Friend's intervention. When my new clause was selected for debate this afternoon, a letter from the Minister with responsibility for sport was sent to me by hand marked, "Immediate — most urgent". My hon. Friend the Minister quite rightly drew attention to the fact that he is holding a seminar in November when such matters can be investigated. I congratulate him on that initiative. However, neither I nor the CCPR—for which I hope I speak — believe that it is adequate to deal with the matter through a seminar when legislation is clearly needed.

I could produce at least an inch of evidence from schools throughout the country to support my case about head teachers who have been creating difficulties for children. The new clause is not just about getting children on to playing fields; it is about team co-operation, health, education, competition and national standards for sport. I hope that the Government will positively welcome my suggestions.

Photo of Edward Leigh Edward Leigh , Gainsborough and Horncastle

I hope that my hon. Friend the Member for Stafford (Mr. Cash) will forgive me if I do not take up his remarks. Although I agree with everything that he said, I wish to deal especially with Opposition amendment No. 148 and my amendment No. 223, both of which relate to political indoctrination in schools.

Two years ago 180 of my colleagues either joined me in the Lobby to support my ten-minute Bill or signed an early-day motion. I admit that for two years nothing happened in the Department. I understand that a senior mandarin is quoted as saying: Since the concept of indoctrination is antithetical to that of education the current Education Act, by virtue of being an Education Act, implicitly disallows biased political teaching. That may be an appropriate gesture by one of our senior civil servants, but it has not prevented political indoctrination in our schools. I was delighted when the Government acceded to an amendment tabled by my noble Friend Baroness Cox in another place, and it is to that that clause 42 relates.

Traditionally our education has been based on consensus, but that is now breaking down. The consensus is simply that children are placed in schools in loco parentis and that teachers do not have a right to inculcate their political viewpoints into their education. When most of us were at school, current affairs classes were usually confined to a Friday afternoon. I do not think that any of us knew the political viewpoint of our teachers — [Interruption.] Opposition Members may laugh, but I did not know whether my teachers voted Conservative, Labour or Liberal—and that was quite right.

Although the vast majority of teachers comply with traditional forms of teaching, a small militant minority have indulged in a form of teaching that can be described only as brutal, intellectual sermonising. They have not sought to encourage children to develop their own thinking on political matters but instead have tried to instil in them their own political views. That was shown most clearly in an address by Mr. Chris Searle, who was sometime acting head of humanities in a London school. He said: When we deal with El Salvador we are dealing firstly and fundamentally with violence and armed struggle and we have to come to terms with the fact that there are two forms of violence. Mr. Searle was trying to inculcate his views in his pupils' education.

He continued: There's the bestial, inhuman violence which buttresses a tyrannical and proxy regime and another form of violence —a righteous violence—a revolutionary violence— a just violence in which, for example, the fighters for justice and freedom in El Salvador or Namibia are engaged. He was telling his pupils that some forms of violence are to be applauded when they are in pursuit of political objectives with which he agrees. That is worrying, and that is why clause 42 is so desperately needed. I am surprised that the Labour party is seeking in its amendment to make it meaningless.

The examples of Mr. Searle and others are perhaps extreme, but in one London school question paper the following question was set: The money required to provide adequate food, water, education. health and housing for everyone in the world is estimated at $17,000 million (£11,500 million) a year. How many weeks of NATO and Warsaw Pact military spending would be enough to pay for this? (Show all your working). It is clear that the question is biased. It is an attempt to channel children's minds into a certain political viewpoint. Instead of encouraging children to think for themselves, they are having a political viewpoint rammed down their throats, which cannot be right.

Amendment No. 223 deals with one small aspect of the problem and clause 42 should go a long way towards banning political indoctrination, but it relates to the pursuit of partisan political activities by any of those registered pupils at the school… and … the promotion of partisan political views in the teaching of any subject in the school. I am worried because that will not prevent teachers from placing posters on walls, such as CND posters. As long as they do not teach the subject, they will get away with it. It is important that at this late stage we should tighten up the Bill if we can.

I was told that in Lincoln a poster of my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister was placed on a school notice board and someone wrote upon it that she should have a bullet put through her head. That might be said to be laughable, hut what is that sort of poster doing on school walls? When I visited a school in my constituency of Horncastle, I saw a CND poster on a wall. The place for CND posters is not in our schools, and nor is there a place for Conservative party posters in our schools. The same goes for Labour party posters. We do not want any party political posters in our schools, but they have been finding their way into them and that is why clause 42 is so necessary.

The most noticeable form of political indoctrination in the past two or three years has been so-called peace studies. Invariably they deal not with one aspect of peace but peddle a unilateralist line. That is bad enough, but they seek to inculcate a particular form of thinking. For example, the following question was placed in a Bournemouth question paper for schools: Do you realise that the mobility of cruise missiles on trucks makes the south of England one big target area? why should children be posed that sort of question? Why should they be required to think in those terms? When I introduced a ten-minute Bill, I produced evidence, including the ILEA dove pack, which contained no fewer than 60 items peddling the unilateralist line. Only two items gave any help to teachers who were to teach so-called peace studies by dealing with the multilateralist line. As we well know, many peace studies do not deal with peace in its entirety. Instead, they try to peddle one line.

Another difficult area on which I want briefly to touch is anti-racial studies. All of us in the House abhor racism and we hope that our education system will inculcate in our young people a hatred of anything that can possibly be termed racist. The traditional and Christian concepts of education inculcated that kind of belief by seeking to instil in pupils compassion, care for others and a belief that all people are born with at least equality of opportunity. The anti-racism studies that we have seen develop in some of our schools, especially in London, are very different from that. In one ILEA teaching pack, for example, the tactics of the police in the miners' strike were equated with Auschwitz. That is an outrageous comparison and is an example of partisan political teaching in our schools. There is a danger that that will lead children to trivialise the horrors of Auschwitz. That kind of teaching has no place in our schools.

6.45 pm

I have a copy of a letter of 30 May that was sent from the South Tyneside borough council to all schools in the local authority area. It calls on the schools to co-ordinate 10 days of action from 16 to 26 June in campaigning on South Africa. Most of us on these Benches abhor apartheid and we would like to feel that our children will have inculcated in them a belief that apartheid is wrong, but should we be campaigning against apartheid in our schools? Of course not. That is not the way to deal with the problem, but that has been going on in our schools. That is why we need clause 42.

Education in a free society should enshrine the principle of freedom to pursue truth in all its different guises. The only truth is that there is no truth save the necessity of seeking it at all times. It is not the purpose of education to inculcate in immature minds half-baked political theories from the Right or the Left. That is why clause 42 is so important. I commend it to the House.

Photo of Mr Hector Monro Mr Hector Monro , Dumfries

I support my hon. Friend the Member for Stafford (Mr. Cash), who has tabled new clause 35. It is designed to ensure that children will have sufficient sport and recreation at school. This is a matter of attitudes and priorities and not of money and I think that we can show to Ministers the importance that we attach to this subject.

I shall not be diverted to the issue of rates, which we debated when dealing with Scottish legislation as long ago as 1984. I think that the rates issue will be resolved in good time and we should not become too anxious about it at this stage of the Session.

A great improvement in sport and recreation at schools can be obtained without additional expenditure. We want enthusiasm from staff and parents, much better organisation of available time, better coaching and a much better use of facilities, many of which are of exceptional quality.

Photo of Sir Nicholas Bonsor Sir Nicholas Bonsor , Upminster

I think that my hon. Friend should stress that there is a real danger to sport in schools because of the positive antagonism to it in many schools, especially those in the ILEA area. Sadly, this antagonism is spreading throughout the country. The problem is not confined to lack of enthusiasm.

Photo of Mr Hector Monro Mr Hector Monro , Dumfries

I am sure that the House will take note of my hon. Friend's serious warning. He speaks with first-hand knowledge of the south-east of England.

Sporting and recreational facilities are extremely good in many instances and it is most unfortunate that they are shut and not available for use for part of the time. For years, those interested in sport and recreation as well as education have talked about the dual use of facilities so that children can use them during the day and the evening while parents can use them at night. Time and again we have been told that this is impossible, and all sorts of attitudes have been advanced. There should be more enthusiasm within the Department of Education and Science to resolve this basic problem.

I accept that we have to face the difficulties of providing caretakers and access to the public, for example, but when facilities are so under-used we must find answers to the problems. It is frustrating that this issue has been with us for many years. During my humble period as the Minister with responsibilities for sport, I spoke to Ministers of the Department of Education and Science—this was in 1980 and 1981 — and urged them to try with me to make progress. Progress in this area has been singularly slow under both Labour and Conservative Governments.

Photo of Bill Cash Bill Cash , Stafford

Will my hon. Friend give consideration to using the community programme to provide maintenance for some of our sporting fields? That is something which would fit in well with the problems that stem from a great deal of unemployment.

Photo of Mr Hector Monro Mr Hector Monro , Dumfries

That is another constructive idea to throw into the debate. Given the pressure that has been placed on the Department over many years to take dual use seriously, I hope that it will show resolve to overcome the difficulties that seem to present an impossible problem to those interested in obtaining the use of gymnasiums, squash courts and swimming pools, all of which lie idle in the evenings.

Why is sport and recreation so important in education? I believe that sport and recreation and the part that games play in education are all part of the quality of education and we see the development of character and leadership through team games and individual pursuits such as hill walking, ski-ing, and so on. Any form of adventure training must be encouraged in our schools. We must encourage our children to reach achievements that they felt were beyond their capabilities. They must be pushed, but not too far. We must have a careful balance between what is a foolhardy activity and an acceptable risk. We must set out with such goals in mind—not the rather flaccid "do nothing, lie down and go to to sleep" attitude of many educationists.

Team spirit may be a throwaway line, but it is vital at school and in many aspects of life. It develops loyalty in every respect. It enables the building of morale and the acceptance of discipline. Professional sportsmen should see children playing football, rugby and cricket and accepting the decision of the referee or umpire without question. To achieve that, there is much to be done on the field in terms of discipline. That starts at school.

Photo of Mr John Carlisle Mr John Carlisle , Luton North

Does my hon. Friend agree that the decline in team sports, which has been illustrated on the national field in games such as football, cricket and rugby, with the honourable exception of hockey, is perhaps due to the reason that he has just mentioned— that in some cases teachers have tried to get away from the competitive element and have encouraged individual sports? Should we not encourage team sports so that Britain can once again be great?

Photo of Mr Hector Monro Mr Hector Monro , Dumfries

Yes, indeed. Much of the purpose of my hon. Friend's new clause is to develop team sports. In view of the great world hockey championships which took place over the past fortnight, one can see what can be done if the spirit and enthusiasm are present. I give all credit to England for its remarkable achievement in hockey and the tremendous spirit in which the tournament was played. That tournament showed that, to have high quality games, one must have high quality facilities. The all-weather pitch on which the hockey was played enabled the games to be of a high standard. One could not have seen such a standard on the average grass field that is provided at many schools, when it is a hit or miss operation. Hockey played under such conditions can be a miserable form of sport. We must bear in mind that it does rain in this country. We have far too many football and rugby pitches at schools that become mud heaps by about February or March. The facilities need to be better for the wet weather.

The point on which we are all agreed is that, if a school is at the top educationally, it is absolutely certain that it is also at the top through team games—

Photo of Mr Hector Monro Mr Hector Monro , Dumfries

I ask the hon. Gentleman to let me finish my sentence. The excellence of education academically and through games is complementary. Schools that have a high morale academically and in games are usually extremely good schools.

Photo of Mr Martin Flannery Mr Martin Flannery , Sheffield, Hillsborough

The hon. Gentleman never says a word about money. The cuts in education have meant that schools are grumpy and books are missing. The hon. Gentleman advocates doing things in sport when his Government is cutting money on a grand scale. We cannot possibly do what he suggests.

Photo of Mr Hector Monro Mr Hector Monro , Dumfries

It is high time that the hon. Gentleman listened to other Member's speeches. I made it clear at the beginning of my speech that enthusiasm for sport in schools need not cost a penny more than it does at present. It is a question of using time, teachers and facilities adequately. There is no need to spend more money. It is a question of changing attitudes. The hon. Member's attitude is completely wrong. I repeat that good schools in education and good schools in sport are outstandingly good schools for our children. That is what we want to achieve. Children who come from a good school will walk tall. Their morale will be high through both their academic and sporting achievements. Nothing that I have suggested during my speech would cost a penny. It requires a change of attitude by those in authority and encouragement by Ministers and the Department of Education and Science. We have physical education teachers of high quality. They can be excellent coaches. So where are we going wrong? Indoor facilities are good, but perhaps they are insufficient.

I have spoken about this country's climate and the quality of outdoor pitches. Time is not on our side. The world judges a country by its performance at sport. At the top of the pyramid we are very good. We have exceptionally gifted performers and world champions; I pay all credit to them. However, at the base, I am afraid that our performance is average. Indeed, we could say that it is mediocre. We want to see more centres of excellence based in our schools so that governing bodies, which are led so well by the Central Council of Physical Recreation, encourage children, when they reach 16 and 17 years, to join sports clubs and enjoy sports and recreation after they have left school.

Photo of Mr Clement Freud Mr Clement Freud , North East Cambridgeshire

Cannot the hon. Gentleman, as a Scottish Member of Parliament and an ex-Minister, do something about the Scottish rating authorities killing off Scottish athletic clubs?

Photo of Mr Hector Monro Mr Hector Monro , Dumfries

The hon. Gentleman has not listened either. I started my speech by saying that I did not want to go into the details of rating. The rating issue is one of the sports clubs and not of schools. The rating issue was debated in great detail by the Scottish Standing Committee in 1984. 1 am sure that the hon. Gentleman has read all the proceedings. He knows that the English and Scottish sports clubs are valued on a different proposition. That must be faced in future. It is not an issue at the moment. It is certainly not an issue in the new clause regarding schools.

I encourage my hon. Friends to lead education authorities towards greater prominence for sport and recreation in our schools. That would be an advantage to schools both academically and physically through the morale, leadership and sportsmanship that team games bring to schools. My hon. Friend the Member for Stafford has given the House a great opportunity to set the flag waving for sport and recreation. I hope that Ministers will respond with similar enthusiasm.

Photo of Mr Harry Greenway Mr Harry Greenway , Ealing North

I support my hon. Friend the Member for Stafford (Mr. Cash) in this most important new clause. Bearing in mind hon. Members' enthusiasm for the game of hockey and their delight at the England team's success, I hope that we shall have success in recruiting more colleagues into the Lords and Commons hockey XI. I invite them to come along.

The new clause is a sad but necessary one. I think of the sporting situation when I first became involved in London schools a long time ago. In 1957 I was elected as General Secretary of the Westminster Schools Athletics Association. Every primary and secondary school in Westminster belonged to that association. We made it our business to see that there were competitive games for every child in every school—boy and girl, in whatever his or her chosen game might be. There was a considerable shortage of facilities in that area. Children had to travel across to Battersea and beyond to get the facilities they needed for sport. Today, in many schools there are no team games, even though there are pitches on the school campus and outside the school's front door. They lie unused for weeks on end, despised by local authorities and some school governors. That just will not do. It is unfair to children. There is a traditional and substantial motto in education —mens sano in corporo sano—which means "a healthy body produces a healthy mind". I think that this has been accepted—,[Interruption]—not by all, not by one or two fat men—

7 pm

Photo of Bill Cash Bill Cash , Stafford

Is my hon. Friend aware that a study in the midlands, which is cited in The Observer of 16 March 1986, has shown that 83 per cent. of children engaged in less than five minutes' vigorous activity a day? That is appalling. As the article says: If typical, this statistic must cause grave anxieties to those interested in the future wellbeing of the nation.

Photo of Mr Harry Greenway Mr Harry Greenway , Ealing North

That is an important point. Further, 85 per cent. of all children do not take part in any sport beyond the age of 15. That statistic has been established for a number of years. The percentage is increasing, which is very sad.

Because of the lack of sport and competitive team games our schools are losing a crucial and helpful ingredient in the education of our young. If children can take part in games, particularly competitive team games, under the direction of a referee or an umpire, they can press one another to the limit, under proper rules. Children will press one another to the limit at other times if they are not allowed team games. I know from long experience that that- is one reason for the type of aggression that is appearing in some schools. Children must be allowed an outlet for their physical and mental energies and their determination to compete. If that is not allowed in sport, there will be aggravation of a type we do not want.

Sadly, we are losing as a nation because of the weakness of sport in schools. Mike Gatting, the England cricket captain, who made a fine innings this week, probably would not play cricket if he were in a London school today. [Interruption.] It is no good saying that I should get on, this is an important matter. Labour Members may not care about children and facilities for them but Conservative Members do.

I am president of two school sports associations which attempt to do a great deal for children in our schools, but that is becoming increasingly difficult. Schools are the only place in which we can cope with large numbers of children involved in sport and team games. Clubs cannot do so. In any case, the children who join clubs to learn sport have to buy or be given equipment. Many will not have a chance. That is wrong. The schools should provide opportunities to play sport, and the necessary equipment, so that every child, whoever he or she is, can play sport.

Playing individual games or competing against an environment or one's own performance during childhood has led many people to a job in adulthood as a professional cricket player, soccer player, and so on. Unless we do something about sport, we shall deny children a valuable avenue to enjoy work in their adult lives. I commend the new clause to the House.

Photo of Mrs Angela Rumbold Mrs Angela Rumbold , Mitcham and Morden

I turn first to the important points on competitive sports raised by my hon. Friends the Members for Stafford (Mr. Cash), for Dumfries (Sir H. Monro), and for Ealing, North (Mr. Greenway). I appreciate the concern of my hon. Friend the Member for Stafford about the importance of competitive sport in schools. As he has acknowledged, there is to be a seminar involving my hon. Friend the Minister with responsibility for sport, the Under-Secretary of State for the Environment, the hon. Member for Surbiton (Mr. Tracey), to discuss sport in schools. I hope that we shall take cognisance of the important points raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam (Mr. Macfarlane) who asked us to consider a national survey of what is happening in the sporting world.

My hon. Friend the Member for Stafford spoke at length about the CCPR. That will be one of the bodies which will take part in the seminar on school sport which, with the agreement of Ministers, the Department of Education and Science and the Department of the Environment will hold in November. That seminar will be attended by a wide range of representatives of the national sports associations and the education partners—teachers and advisers. We want to support strongly the views of all my hon. Friends.

Photo of Bill Cash Bill Cash , Stafford

I am sure that my hon. Friend will acknowledge that one problem is that the Minister with responsibility for sport is from the Department of the Environment. The sports issue arises in the context of the curriculum in schools, which falls within the responsibility of my hon. Friend's Department. I hope that she will address the need for legislation in the context of political purposes as they affect local authorities just as she did before being elevated to her present position.

Photo of Mrs Angela Rumbold Mrs Angela Rumbold , Mitcham and Morden

If my hon. Friend will bear with me for a moment, I shall come to his points about the possibility of legislation. It is important in the context of the Bill to consider how sport is placed on the curriculum. Important discussions are taking place between the partners, which are the governing bodies and the sporting interests. I fully understand the emphasis that my hon. Friend the Member for Dumfries has placed on sport in schools and his philosophy. The competitive spirit is an essential part of that. My hon. Friend the Member for Ealing, North emphasised the point that sport plays an important part in the curriculum and in the school structure in developing a school spirit.

The Government firmly believe that the organisation and delivery of a schools curriculum are properly matters for local determination. Clauses 17 to 19 clearly define the roles of the local education authority, the governing body and the head teacher in that process—roles that are not entirely compatible with the absolute duty in respect of sport which my hon. Friend the Member for Stafford would place on local education authorities. I ask him to accept that it would be difficult in the context of the Bill to have competitive sport specifically protected by statute and afforded, alone among all the curriculum subjects, the same status as religious education.

Photo of Bill Cash Bill Cash , Stafford

I ask my hon. Friend to accept the point that my new clause proposes no more than that there should be consultation between local education authorities and schools and between the Secretary of State, local education authorities and schools, which, effectively, would give parents a right which they do not have at the moment to insist upon something that is in the interests of their children.

Photo of Mrs Angela Rumbold Mrs Angela Rumbold , Mitcham and Morden

I think that my hon. Friend will admit that we have discussed at considerable length the methods by which we had hoped to encourage consultation between the Secretary of State, the governors and the schools about the order of the curriculum. The Bill's general thrust is to include parents on governing bodies to enable them to consider how to organise the curriculum in the way they think most suitable. I emphasise that, by increasing parental influence on governing bodies, we are seeking the very provisions in schools which my hon. Friend hopes to achieve. My hon. Friend the Member for Stafford also proposes that the new duty would be modified to the extent by which it would be unlawful for authorities to spend more in this area than the sum determined by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State. That, as hon. Gentlemen will recognise, represents a radical departure from the way in which the level of funding for provision in schools is otherwise decided. I could not see a justification, as I am sure that my hon. Friend will accept, for the funding of provision for competitive sport in schools to be afforded any treatment under the law different from that provided for other subjects.

My hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough and Horncastle (Mr. Leigh) raised the matter of the importance of clause 42. I am grateful to those in the other place who put this clause within the Bill. We sincerely agree with all that my hon. Friend said. He has associated himself with amendments Nos. 148 and 149, which argue that we should delete the requirement to forbid the pursuit of partisan political activities. That would leave a significant gap in clause 42 because paragraph (1)(b) deals only with the promotion of partisan political views during the teaching of any subject in schools and does not include the many activities which teachers may arrange outside the normal teaching programme.

Photo of Edward Leigh Edward Leigh , Gainsborough and Horncastle

I hope that there has not been a misunderstanding. I was opposing the Labour party's amendment.

Photo of Mrs Angela Rumbold Mrs Angela Rumbold , Mitcham and Morden

I accept that. However, my hon. Friend moved amendment No. 223. Unfortunately, that would impart a much wider understanding than we intend. Taken together, clauses 42 and 43 provide a comprehensive set of provisions against political indoctrination.

My hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough and Horncastle made an important point about posters. We both recognise that in former incarnations within the House we have raised this matter with the Department of the Environment. Posters which would bring political issues to the attention of pupils will be covered by clause 43. That will require that where such issues are brought to the attention of pupils they are offered a balanced presentation of opposing views. I cannot see how a poster on its own which presents a particular political view, for example, by the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament, could meet that requirement. On the other hand, if there were to be a mock election in a school, posters of all different political parties would be reasonable and acceptable.

I hope that my hon. Friend will realise that it is not possible for me to accept amendment No. 223, not only because it would widen the extent of clause 42 beyond necessity but because seeking to influence pupils is unspecified and therefore the paragraph is ungrammatical.

Photo of Mr Giles Radice Mr Giles Radice Shadow Secretary of State for Education 7:15 pm, 21st October 1986

In this group of amendments and new clauses we have been debating a considerable number of subjects. I want to put on record the fact that we are sympathetic to the idea behind new clause 35. We are strongly in favour of sport in schools, both team and individual sports. In fact, the Inner London education authority would be in favour of a duty to provide competitive sports. My local authority, Durham, which is Labour-controlled and has been for many years, is strongly in favour of sport, and is in the forefront of providing it in schools. Clearly, we have to look at new ways, new policies and new money for providing sport in schools.

Our new clause deals with the setting up of an education council. I was glad that the Minister had my Fabian pamphlet. At least, I am glad that her civil servants have read it, even if she has not. I urge the hon. Lady to read it. The Minister accused me of ignoring the role of Parliament. In fact, we are strong believers in the Select Committee system. I hope that the next Labour Government will treat that system with more respect than this Government have done, especially the Select Commit tee on Education, Science and Arts. I will not take any lectures from the Minister about that.

I am glad to hear that the hon. Lady does not want to run the system from Whitehall and that she supports dialogue. That is good news. Certainly, the hon. Lady is well placed to argue that case with her experience in local government. However, she did not face the argument about the education council. She is complacent about the state of the educational partnership and the Government's relationship with local authorities and teachers, which is in a bad state. In fact, there is a major breakdown of consensus in our education system. That is one reason why we have argued for an education council with representatives of the major interests on it. It would agree on and debate the major educational issues.

Question put, That the clause be read a Second time:—

The House divided: Ayes 162, Noes 301.

Division No. 282][7.15 pm
Abse, LeoBrown, Gordon (D'f'mline E)
Adams, Allen (Paisley N)Brown, Hugh D. (Provan)
Anderson, DonaldBrown, N. (N'c'tle-u-Tyne E)
Archer, Rt Hon PeterBrown, R. (N'c'tle-u-Tyne N)
Ashton, JoeBrown, Ron (E'burgh, Leith)
Atkinson, N. (Tottenham)Buchan, Norman
Bagier, Gordon A. T.Callaghan, Jim (Heyw'd & M)
Banks, Tony (Newham NW)Campbell, Ian
Barnett, GuyCampbell-Savours, Dale
Barron, KevinClark, Dr David (S Shields)
Beckett, Mrs MargaretClay, Robert
Bell, StuartClwyd, Mrs Ann
Bennett, A. (Dent'n & Red'sh)Cocks, Rt Hon M. (Bristol S)
Bidwell, SydneyCohen, Harry
Blair, AnthonyConlan, Bernard
Boyes, RolandCook, Robin F. (Livingston)
Bray, Dr JeremyCraigen, J. M.
Crowther, StanMcWilliam, John
Cunliffe, LawrenceMadden, Max
Cunningham, Dr JohnMarek, Dr John
Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (L'lli)Marshall, David (Shettleston)
Davis, Terry (B'ham, H'ge H'l)Martin, Michael
Deakins, EricMason, Rt Hon Roy
Dewar, DonaldMaxton, John
Dixon, DonaldMaynard, Miss Joan
Dobson, FrankMeacher, Michael
Dormand, JackMichie, William
Douglas, DickMikardo, Ian
Dubs, AlfredMillan, Rt Hon Bruce
Duffy, A. E. P.Miller, Dr M. S. (E Kilbride)
Dunwoody, Hon Mrs G.Mitchell, Austin (G't Grimsty)
Eadie, AlexMorris, Rt Hon A. (W'shawe)
Eastham, KenMorris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon)
Evans, John (St. Helens N)Nellist, David
Ewing, HarryOakes, Rt Hon Gordon
Fatchett, DerekO'Brien, William
Faulds, AndrewO'Neill, Martin
Fields, T. (L'pool Broad Gn)Orme, Rt Hon Stanley
Fisher, MarkPark, George
Flannery, MartinPatchett, Terry
Foot, Rt Hon MichaelPavitt, Laurie
Forrester, JohnPike, Peter
Foster, DerekPowell, Raymond (Ogmore)
Foulkes, GeorgeRadice, Giles
Freeson, Rt Hon ReginaldRandall, Stuart
Garrett, W. E.Redmond, Martin
George, BruceRichardson, Ms Jo
Gilbert, Rt Hon Dr JohnRoberts, Ernest (Hackney N)
Godman, Dr NormanRobertson, George
Golding, Mrs LlinRobinson, G. (Coventry NW)
Gourlay, HarryRogers, Allan
Hamilton, James (M'well N)Rooker, J. W.
Hamilton, W. W. (Fife Central)Ross, Ernest (Dundee W)
Harman, Ms HarrietRowlands, Ted
Harrison, Rt Hon WalterSheldon, Rt Hon R.
Hart, Rt Hon Dame JudithShore, Rt Hon Peter
Heffer, Eric S.Short, Ms Clare (Ladywood)
Hogg, N. (C'nauld & Kilsyth)Short, Mrs R.(W'hampt'n NE)
Home Robertson, JohnSilkin, Rt Hon J.
Hoyle, DouglasSkinner, Dennis
Hughes, Dr Mark (Durham)Smith, C.(Isl'ton S & F'bury)
Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N)Smith, Cyril (Rochdale)
Hughes, Roy (Newport East)Soley, Clive
Hughes, Sean (Knowsley S)Spearing, Nigel
Janner, Hon GrevilleStrang, Gavin
John, BrynmorThomas, Dafydd (Merioneth)
Jones, Barry (Alyn & Deeside)Thompson, J. (Wansbeck)
Kaufman, Rt Hon GeraldThorne, Stan (Preston)
Kinnock, Rt Hon NeilTinn, James
Lambie, DavidTorney, Tom
Lamond, JamesWardell, Gareth (Gower)
Leadbitter, TedWareing, Robert
Leighton, RonaldWelsh, Michael
Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)White, James
Lewis, Terence (Worsley)Wigley, Dafydd
Lloyd, Tony (Stretford)Williams, Rt Hon A.
Lofthouse, GeoffreyWinnick, David
Loyden, EdwardWoodall, Alec
McCartney, HughYoung, David (Bolton SE)
McDonald, Dr Oonagh
McKelvey, WilliamTellers for the Ayes:
MacKenzie, Rt Hon GregorMr. Ron Davies and
McTaggart, RobertMr. Allen McKay.
Adley, RobertBaldry, Tony
Alexander, RichardBanks, Robert (Harrogato)
Alison, Rt Hon MichaelBatiste, Spencer
Amess, DavidBendall, Vivian
Ancram, MichaelBennett, Rt Hon Sir Frederic
Arnold, TomBenyon, William
Ashby, DavidBest, Keith
Aspinwall, JackBevan, David Gilroy
Atkins, Rt Hon Sir H.Biffen, Rt Hon John
Atkins, Robert (South Ribble)Biggs-Davison, Sir John
Atkinson, David (B'm'th E)Blackburn, John
Baker, Rt Hon K. (Mole Vall'y)Blaker, Rt Hon Sir Peter
Body, Sir RichardHannam, John
Bonsor, Sir NicholasHargreaves, Kenneth
Bottomley, Mrs VirginiaHarris, David
Bowden, A. (Brighton K'to'n)Harvey, Robert
Bowden, Gerald (Dulwich)Haselhurst, Alan
Boyson, Dr RhodesHavers, Rt Hon Sir Michael
Braine, Rt Hon Sir BernardHawkins, Sir Paul (N'folk SW)
Brandon-Bravo, MartinHawksley, Warren
Bright, GrahamHayes, J.
Brinton, TimHayhoe, Rt Hon Barney
Brittan, Rt Hon LeonHayward, Robert
Brown, M. (Brigg & Cl'thpes)Heathcoat-Amory, David
Browne, JohnHenderson, Barry
Bruinvels, PeterHickmet, Richard
Buchanan-Smith, Rt Hon A.Hicks, Robert
Budgen, NickHill, James
Bulmer, EsmondHind, Kenneth
Burt, AlistairHogg, Hon Douglas (Gr'th'm)
Butterfill, JohnHolland, Sir Philip (Gedling)
Carlisle, John (Luton N)Holt, Richard
Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln)Hordern, Sir Peter
Carlisle, Rt Hon M. (W'ton S)Howard, Michael
Cash, WilliamHowarth, Alan (Stratf'd-on-A)
Channon, Rt Hon PaulHowarth, Gerald (Cannock)
Chapman, SydneyHowell, Rt Hon D. (G'ldford)
Chope, ChristopherHowell, Ralph (Norfolk, N)
Churchill, W. S.Hubbard-Miles, Peter
Clark, Dr Michael (Rochford)Irving, Charles
Clark, Sir W. (Croydon S)Jessel, Toby
Clarke, Rt Hon K. (Rushcliffe)Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey
Clegg, Sir WalterJones, Gwilym (Cardiff N)
Cockeram, EricJones, Robert (Herts W)
Colvin, MichaelKellett-Bowman, Mrs Elaine
Cope, JohnKershaw, Sir Anthony
Cormack, PatrickKey, Robert
Couchman, JamesKing, Roger (B'ham N'field)
Critchley, JulianKnight, Greg (Derby N)
Crouch, DavidKnowles, Michael
Currie, Mrs EdwinaKnox, David
Dickens, GeoffreyLamont, Rt Hon Norman
Dicks, TerryLang, Ian
Dorrell, StephenLatham, Michael
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord J.Lawler, Geoffrey
du Cann, Rt Hon Sir EdwardLawrence, Ivan
Dunn, RobertLawson, Rt Hon Nigel
Durant, TonyLee, John (Pendle)
Edwards, Rt Hon N. (P'broke)Leigh, Edward (Gainsbor'gh)
Eggar, TimLennox-Boyd, Hon Mark
Emery, Sir PeterLewis, Sir Kenneth (Stamf'd)
Evennett, DavidLightbown, David
Eyre, Sir ReginaldLilley, Peter
Fallon, MichaelLloyd, Sir Ian (Havant)
Farr, Sir JohnLloyd, Peter (Fareham)
Favell, AnthonyLord, Michael
Fenner, Mrs PeggyLyell, Nicholas
Forman, NigelMcCurley, Mrs Anna
Forsyth, Michael (Stirling)Macfarlane, Neil
Forth, EricMacGregor, Rt Hon John
Fox, Sir MarcusMacKay, Andrew (Berkshire)
Franks, CecilMacKay, John (Argyll & Bute)
Fraser, Peter (Angus East)Maclean, David John
Fry, PeterMcLoughlin, Patrick
Gale, RogerMcNair-Wilson, M. (N'bury)
Galley, RoyMcNair-Wilson, P. (New F'st)
Gardiner, George (Reigate)McQuarrie, Albert
Gilmour, Rt Hon Sir IanMadel, David
Glyn, Dr AlanMajor, John
Gow, IanMalins, Humfrey
Gower, Sir RaymondMalone, Gerald
Grant, Sir AnthonyMaples, John
Greenway, HarryMarland, Paul
Gregory, ConalMarshall, Michael (Arundel)
Griffiths, Sir EldonMates, Michael
Griffiths, Peter (Portsm'th N)Mather, Carol
Grist, IanMaude, Hon Francis
Ground, PatrickMawhinney, Dr Brian
Grylls, MichaelMaxwell-Hyslop, Robin
Hamilton, Hon A. (Epsom)Mayhew, Sir Patrick
Hamilton, Neil (Tatton)Merchant, Piers
Hampson, Dr KeithMeyer, Sir Anthony
Miller, Hal (B grove)Shersby, Michael
Mills, Iain (Meriden)Silvester, Fred
Miscampbell, NormanSims, Roger
Mitchell, David (Hants NW)Smith, Sir Dudley (Warwick)
Moate, RogerSmith, Tim (Beaconsfield)
Monro, Sir HectorSoames, Hon Nicholas
Moore, Rt Hon JohnSpeed, Keith
Morris, M. (N'hampton S)Speller, Tony
Morrison, Hon C. (Devizes)Spencer, Derek
Morrison, Hon P. (Chester)Spicer, Jim (Dorset W)
Moynihan, Hon C.Spicer, Michael (S Worcs)
Mudd, DavidSquire, Robin
Neale, GerrardStanbrook, Ivor
Needham, RichardStanley, Rt Hon John
Nelson, AnthonyStern, Michael
Neubert, MichaelStewart, Allan (Eastwood)
Newton, TonyStewart, Andrew (Sherwood)
Nicholls, PatrickStewart, Ian (Hertf'dshire N)
Norris, StevenSumberg, David
Onslow, CranleyTapsell, Sir Peter
Oppenheim, PhillipTaylor, John (Solihull)
Oppenheim, Rt Hon Mrs S.Taylor, Teddy (S'end E)
Osborn, Sir JohnTemple-Morris, Peter
Ottaway, RichardThatcher, Rt Hon Mrs M.
Page, Sir John (Harrow W)Thomas, Rt Hon Peter
Page, Richard (Herts SW)Thompson, Donald (Calder V)
Patten, Christopher (Bath)Thompson, Patrick (N'ich N)
Patten, J. (Oxf W & Abgdn)Thorne, Neil (Ilford S)
Pawsey, JamesThornton, Malcolm
Pollock, AlexanderThurnham, Peter
Porter, BarryTownend, John (Bridlington)
Portillo, MichaelTownsend, Cyril D. (B'heath)
Powell, William (Corby)Tracey, Richard
Powley, JohnTrippier, David
Prentice, Rt Hon RegTrotter, Neville
Price, Sir DavidTwinn, Dr Ian
Proctor, K. HarveyVaughan, Sir Gerard
Pym, Rt Hon FrancisWaddington, David
Raffan, KeithWakeham, Rt Hon John
Raison, Rt Hon TimothyWalden, George
Rathbone, TimWaller, Gary
Renton, TimWalters, Dennis
Rhodes James, RobertWardle, C. (Bexhill)
Rhys Williams, Sir BrandonWarren, Kenneth
Ridley, Rt Hon NicholasWatson, John
Ridsdale, Sir JulianWatts, John
Rifkind, Rt Hon MalcolmWells, Bowen (Hertford)
Robinson, Mark (N'port W)Wells, Sir John (Maidstone)
Roe, Mrs MarionWhitney, Raymond
Rossi, Sir HughWiggin, Jerry
Rost, PeterWilkinson, John
Rowe, AndrewWinterton, Mrs Ann
Rumbold, Mrs AngelaWolfson, Mark
Ryder, RichardWoodcock, Michael
Sackville, Hon ThomasYeo, Tim
St. John-Stevas, Rt Hon N.Young, Sir George (Acton)
Sayeed, Jonathan
Shaw, Sir Michael (Scarb')Tellers for the Noes:
Shelton, William (Streatham)Mr. Tristan Garel-Jones and
Shepherd, Colin (Hereford)Mr. Robert Boscawen.
Shepherd, Richard (Aldridge)

Question accordingly negatived.