Orders of the Day — Anglo-Irish Agreement

Part of the debate – in the House of Commons at 6:52 pm on 27 November 1985.

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Photo of Mr Alfred Dubs Mr Alfred Dubs , Battersea 6:52, 27 November 1985

It is clear that Northern Ireland is different and has been different from the rest of the United Kingdom since its foundation and since it was made separate from the rest of Ireland because the minority of the people of the north of Ireland objected to the creation of that mini-state.

I have visited Northern Ireland several times. I was a member of the Kilbrandon committee which looked into the results of the New Ireland Forum, and at least some of our conclusions were not far different from the contents of the agreement. On one of my visits, I was shown around Belfast by a woman who I felt sure was a very hard-line supporter of the Democratic Unionist party. At the beginning of the day, I asked her what her attitude was to the border, and she more or less said that she would fight to retain the six counties' separation from the rest of Ireland. The hunger strikes were on, and there was tension in the air. Indeed, a hunger striker's funeral was taking place in the Falls road.

Later that day we were looking at a particularly desolate part of Belfast and I asked her whether she had ever been to Dublin. She said that she had, so I asked her what she thought of it. She said that Dublin was a fine place. I asked, "Are you really saying that coming under Dublin would be worse than all this?" I did not talk about Dublin having a consultative status, but referred merely to "coming under Dublin". She replied, "Put that way, I suppose we could work under Dublin." [Interruption.] Some hon. Members may laugh, but that little anecdote contains hope for Northern Ireland. It shows that it is possible for those who ostensibly vote for unionist politicians to be persuaded to see a different and more peaceful future for their land.

Those who have visited Northern Ireland will have been overwhelmed by the tragedy going on there. It is a reflection of that that when the Leader of the DUP spoke, he did not say anything throughout his lengthy speech about the future of Northern Ireland. He did not offer anything other than a continuation of present events. It was a speech of no hope and of despair. His speech must be contrasted with that made by the leader of the SDLP. The speech made by that hon. Member showed that he was willing to take risks, and that the SDLP had some vision about the future of Northern Ireland and was willing to take risks for the sake of peace in that land.

I can only despair of unionist leaders who say that nothing should be changed and who accept that the violence will continue. They ask merely for more security, and have nothing else to offer the people of the six counties or the people of the whole of Ireland. That is too depressing an assessment for the House to accept. Indeed, it is too depressing to be acceptable to the people of this country.

We must say no to such attitudes, because there must be a different, better and more peaceful way forward. That means some recognition of the responsibilities of leadership on the part of unionist politicians. They must say that they will consider any change to see whether there is anything of benefit there to all the people of the six counties. Sadly, I see no sign of that vision or of the sort of leadership that the Protestant population of the six counties is entitled to expect of them. I see no more than a continuation of the status quo.

It is easy to say that a new suggestion has faults. I also accept that the agreement is flawed. It is not the most wonderful thing imaginable, but at least it offers a way forward. If we always pick to pieces any suggestion made for the future of Northern Ireland, violence will continue. Some people may think that the level of violence is acceptable, but I do not think so. Nevertheless, that violence will continue and our children will end up having the same discussions. That is no way forward.

In this modest agreement, we have an opportunity. Of course the agreement is faulty. Some hon. Members have said that it will help to reduce the level of violence. But in the short term it may not do so, because the men of violence may well see it as a threat and try to undermine it by escalating the violence. But if the agreement is backed by the House, it can form a message to the people of Northern Ireland. In that way, those who have gone along slightly with the men of violence may say that they will not do so any more, thus isolating the terrorists.

I am certain that the leaders of Sinn Fein see the agreement as a threat to the support that they have received from some in the community. I am sure that they are anxious about it, because it will undermine their support. It will not stop the hard-liners committing acts of violence. Nobody expects it to do so. But the agreement's success will be judged by whether the majority of those from the six counties say that they have had enough of violence and will follow this different approach.

I cannot understand why the unionists are so passionately opposed to the agreement. Throughout most of yesterday and today, I listened to their speeches. They cannot object because of the words in the agreement. We are talking about what the agreement signifies and where it goes in the long term.

Perhaps unionist leaders see the agreement as the first step to a united Ireland. I shall deal with that later because I believe in a united Ireland. I think that the traditional unionist politicians fear that the agreement will slowly change attitudes and perceptions in the six counties. It will make the ordinary unionist people who traditionally have regarded Dublin and the Republic as the enemy, believe that it will not be all that bad to give the Republic some advisory say. Because that will make people realise that the Republic is not the enemy of the unionist population in the north, the unionists will be less likely to follow their hard-line leaders. That is a threat to the leaders of the two unionist parties if they believe that they can do nothing about it and that that is the only option.

For that reason, I welcome the agreement. If it makes the people in the six counties adopt a different attitude to the Republic, to co-operating with Dublin and to achieving agreement covering the whole of Ireland—whether on security, the justice system, economic or social policies—so much the better.

For long I have believed in a united Ireland. I hope that the agreement will enable a Labour Government committed to a united Ireland to make progress. That is for the future. That is for the day when there is a different Government. In the meantime we have the reality of a debate about an agreement and the reaction in Northern Ireland and the whole of Ireland to our decision this evening.

I am puzzled about how all the unionists plan to go for by-elections. I think that the Official Unionists have been bullied by the Democratic Unionists for reasons that I do not fully understand. It seems a short-sighted policy. If they are all returned to the seats which they now hold, so what? What will be different? Nothing will have changed and they will have proved nothing. If any of them lose their seats, that will be their problem. Some unionists said that they were making their last speeches in the House. They talk not of the last speeches before the by-elections but of their last speeches ever. I wonder whether that means that they will not resume their seats even if they win their by-elections.

Whatever the arguments by the population forecasters, it is inescapable that at some time in the not-too-distant future the Northern Ireland population will have changed so that there is a Catholic majority in the six counties. The best forecast is that that will happen in 30 years. It may be sooner, or a little later. We have heard that even then a 51 per cent. majority in favour of joining the Republic will not be sufficient for unionist politicians. At what point will they accept that the majority in Northern Ireland want to join a united Ireland?

The unionists must face the consequences of their arguments. There is an inevitability about the population changes and about the process of moving towards a united Ireland. We are witnessing one of a number of last-ditch defences.

When something is inevitable, leadership's task is to ease the transition in a way which is peaceful, protects the interests of the community and ensures stability. Without that, conflict and tension will continue.

The parliamentary tier suggestion is helpful because it would enable closer relationships to be developed between the House of Commons and the Dail. That relationship would be better and be in the interests of all the people of Ireland. I hope that the House will move in that direction.

I do not think that the agreement is the most wonderful thing of all time. It is modest, but it is a step forward in the interests of the peace and well being of the Northern Ireland people and therefore of the people of the whole of Ireland. I hope that the House will give the agreement its overwhelming support.