Wages Councils

Part of Opposition Day – in the House of Commons at 9:50 pm on 6 June 1985.

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Photo of Mr Tom King Mr Tom King Secretary of State for Employment 9:50, 6 June 1985

The consultation paper suggested two alternatives, abolition or reform, and I assure the right hon. Gentleman, as I said in my opening remarks, that there was support for both possibilities.

It would be wrong of me not to say that I have received from some employers' bodies strong arguments for the retention of wages councils. Those bodies have included the Federation of Merchant Tailors, and I feel that I should put that on the record early in my contribution.

The House will have noticed the vigour with which the debate has been conducted and I am under no illusions about the strength of feeling that exists in quarters of the House on this matter. There is a real difference of view. There are those who hold strong views about the present pattern of wages councils, covering an erratic series of shops in the high street. Earlier, I challenged any hon. Member to walk with me down a high street and be able to speak with certainty about which shops were and were not covered by the existing wages councils provisions. That point was clearly recognised by the hon. Member for Truro (Mr. Penhaligon).

If I were to take a theme that has carried certain common ground across the Chamber, it would be that there is, without doubt, room for action. The hon. Member for Yeovil (Mr. Ashdown), part of whose speech I missed, referred to the case for sensible reform. The case for reform undoubtedly exists, and we start from that common ground.

I cannot say that I am absolutely sure about the position of certain Labour Members, least of all those on the Labour Front Bench, who would oppose almost any change in any situation, no matter how obvious the case for it. In this situation, however, we have established a case at least for reform, and the argument that we now face is whether it should be reform or abolition.

I am sorry that the hon. Member for Birmingham, Ladywood (Ms. Short) is not at present in her place. She referred to a leaked document and she seemed to chase every story on the subject. She referred to the obvious fact that there had been a leaked document on the pressures from senior civil servants unhappy with the policy. That was an unfortunate phrase for her to use. She is in a▪ position to know—because the person concerned is with an organisation with which she is connected—that a document has been removed from my Department.

Sadly, it meant the end of the career of a young junior civil servant because he leaked the document of a senior civil servant, in this case the permanent secretary. I say that only in sorrow, and Opposition Members who gloat with great delight about leaked documents must have regard—[Interruption.] This applies particularly to the Labour Member who has aspirations to be in government. He should not gloat too much about the readiness of civil servants to hand out Government documents. If that hon. Member were in a different situation he might not think that to be in the best interests of Government organisation.

My hon. Friend the Member for Bolton, North-East (Mr. Thurnham) was a member of the Select Committee and issued a minority report. He made his arguments clear to the House. The hon. Member for Ladywood promised that her party would fight the proposal all the way. but she cannot bear to be here for the closing speeches. I am sure that there is a reasonable explanation for her absence. I see that she has returned. She makes a late return to the battlefield and we are delighted to welcome her back. Not a single Labour Member of the Select Committee took part in the debate tonight.

My hon. Friend the Member for Bolton, North␣East emphasised the heart of the issue — employment and jobs. My hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth, West (Mr. Butterfill) made it clear that even the Leader of the Opposition's advisers accepted that extra jobs will result. One can argue about how many extra jobs. That is important, but the key question is about the level of protection—if that protection is necessary for those in work—and about what impact it will have on preventing those out of work from having the chance of a job. Those issues are at the heart of the matter.

My hon. Friend the Member for Bolton, North-East also raised another matter which I am sure that the House will consider further. He asked what was the relevance of such a form of wage protection in a society in which there might be family credit or some other form of family income support.

I sought earlier to explain the different criteria against which the original trade boards were established and the different categories involved — the long hours and the insanitary nature of the working conditions. They are two of the three criteria on which the trade boards and the wages councils were established. The criteria are dealt with in different legislation and protected in different ways.

I have listened to most of the debate. I shall study all the contributions. After the extensive consultation we shall reach decisions, not because of the vote tonight, but by giving serious consideration to representations. I do not intend to dismiss with contempt, as the motion invites, the 667 responses. They deserve serious consideration.

The Government's amendment makes clear that those representations, with those from hon. Members, from the Select Committee and from the minority report by my hon. Friend the Member for Bolton, North-East, will be seriously considered. I commend the amendment to the House.