Orders of the Day — Trade Union Bill

Part of the debate – in the House of Commons at 10:15 pm on 26 March 1984.

Alert me about debates like this

Photo of John Gummer John Gummer Minister of State (Department of Employment), Party Chair, Conservative Party 10:15, 26 March 1984

As the hon. Gentleman says, "Or to go back." As I said in Committee, there is a fundamental difference between going on strike and going back to work. The natural order of things is not to be on strike. The idea that there must be a ballot to go back after a strike does not hang with a pre-strike ballot. One should make sure that those who are asked to strike want to do so.

It is not reasonable to say that the immunities of a trade union can be dismissed in the terms used by the right hon. and learned Member for Monklands, East (Mr. Smith). It is essential that those immunities exist, if trade unionism is to exist. No Conservative Members have said otherwise. I have made it clear that I believe in those immunities, because they are right and essential and because it is impossible to imagine an effective trade union movement without them. However, if trade unions are to have those immunities, it is reasonable for the community to insist that they are brought into play when union members want them and not in any other circumstances.

Therefore, if the effect of a strike is to be covered by immunities, it is not unreasonable that the strike should be shown to have the support of those people who will be called out on strike. It is not unreasonable to say that the granting of immunities demands that those who are to be called out on strike have the opportunity of deciding whether they wish to strike. It is not wrong to suggest that there is a connection between immunities and the need to ensure that members who are to be asked to take industrial action have the opportunity to decide on the matter.

The Bill does not preclude a trade union from taking no notice of the response of its members. Nothing in the Bill provides that there must be a majority for a strike. The Bill is careful to say only that those who are to be called to take industrial action should be given the opportunity to decide what they want to do. That is the least interference in the practice of trade unions that can be arranged.

The Opposition also argue that the Bill's provisions are so damaging that they should not be able to be triggered except by an employer. They suggest that a supplier who has been damaged by a strike called without a ballot should not have the right of redress. That is a curious argument, because most of us know that many strikes do considerable damage to third parties.

The hon. Member for Springburn mentioned bakers, but not only small firms are involved. The damage that could be done to an independent wholesaler or retailer is considerable and ought not to be cast aside lightly. Many people are damaged by strikes, and all that is asked is that there should be a ballot. If there is no ballot, the immunities will not exist. That does not seem unreasonable. Nor does it seem unreasonable that the union should lose the immunity from action not only by employers but by others who would be affected.

I entirely agree with what the hon. Member for Bow and Poplar (Mr. Mikardo) said about personal attacks. He and I have good reason to agree that we would not make comments about people's personal appearance. Neither of us would like to face the return match if we did that. However, I made no such personal comments about the hon. Member for Walsall, North (Mr. Winnick). I referred to what he said, the manner in which he said it and the intellect behind it. The hon. Member for Bow and Poplar made heavy weather of that.