Engagements

Oral Answers to Questions — Prime Minister – in the House of Commons at 12:00 am on 30 July 1981.

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Photo of Mr Timothy Eggar Mr Timothy Eggar , Enfield North 12:00, 30 July 1981

asked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Thursday 30 July.

Photo of Mrs Margaret Thatcher Mrs Margaret Thatcher The Prime Minister, Leader of the Conservative Party

This morning I presided at a meeting of the Cabinet and had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others. In addition to my duties in the House I shall be having meetings later today with the Prime Ministers of Australia and Guyana. This evening I am giving a dinner for a number of visiting Heads of State and Government.

Photo of Mr Timothy Eggar Mr Timothy Eggar , Enfield North

When my right hon. Friend considers what legislation should be introduced during the next Session of Parliament, will she confirm that she will give top priority to improving the efficiency of the nationalised industries by limiting their monopoly powers and by the introduction of private capital? Will she confirm that we are looking forward to the privatisation of BNOC and the National Bus Company? Will she further confirm that British Gas will have its monopoly right of gas purchase removed and that it will play only a limited part in the gas-gathering pipeline?

Photo of Mrs Margaret Thatcher Mrs Margaret Thatcher The Prime Minister, Leader of the Conservative Party

As my hon. Friend knows, I share his view that it is important to go as far as we can and as soon as possible in de-monopolising the powers of nationalised industries and introducing competition. A number of Bills are jostling for a place in the next Session. I confirm that it has already been announced that there will be a Bill enabling there to be an equity stake in BNOC. I hope that we shall introduce some legislation for gas appliances. I am afraid that I cannot go further than that without anticipating the Gracious Speech.

Photo of Alan Beith Alan Beith Opposition Whip (Commons)

When the Prime Minister put forward her scheme for subsidising the employment of youngsters, did she consider the fact that in many wages council industries many 17-year-olds are paid slightly more than £40 a week, and also the possibility that the scheme might fall foul of the European Community? Does she really intend to go ahead with the scheme for subsidising low wages?

Photo of Mrs Margaret Thatcher Mrs Margaret Thatcher The Prime Minister, Leader of the Conservative Party

The scheme will go ahead. The hon. Gentleman may recollect that that point was brought up during the debate. I said that wages councils would have to take that into account in their future bargaining procedures. If their wages for 16 and 17-year-olds are higher than the £40 minimum, it is painfully clear that those youngsters will not be able to take advantage of the scheme. We must decide whether we want more youngsters to have jobs with lower wages or fewer youngsters to have jobs with higher wages.

Photo of Mr Willie Hamilton Mr Willie Hamilton , Central Fife

Does the Prime Minister accept the claim made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer that his policies have, to date, been an unqualified success? If so, does she expect him to retain his job for the next 12 months, or is the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food the next person for the chop?

Photo of Mrs Margaret Thatcher Mrs Margaret Thatcher The Prime Minister, Leader of the Conservative Party

The policies of my right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer have succeeded in introducing an air of competitiveness into British industry and also an increase in productivity, from which the hon. Gentleman's Government flinched. Had that been done during the past 20 years, and had overmanning been reduced, Britain would be in a stronger position now.

Photo of Peter Bottomley Peter Bottomley , Greenwich Woolwich West

Will my right hon. Friend try to dig out from the Opposition some support for pay settlements during the forthcoming year that are below those accepted by the nurses and ambulance men? Will she add to the acceptability of far lower and more realistic pay settlements through an increase in child benefit so that those on low pay will have more money in their pockets, which would help the inflationary trends in the economy?

Photo of Mrs Margaret Thatcher Mrs Margaret Thatcher The Prime Minister, Leader of the Conservative Party

I would very much like to do what my hon. Friend suggests. It is important to keep pay settlements low for next year, unless increased pay is earned by increased productivity. That is always the way to achieve increased pay. That path is perpetually open.

Photo of Mr Joseph Dean Mr Joseph Dean , Leeds West

Will the right hon. Lady take time off today to study the recent remarks of the director-general of the Federation of Building Trade Employers? He said that 360,000 people in the building trade are unemployed and that the situation in the industry is continuing to deteriorate rather than levelling out. Does not the right hon. Lady think that the time is opportune to announce a substantial building programmme and to increase the building programme in the public sector, including the building of more council houses, to help the industry out of its present severe recession?

Photo of Mrs Margaret Thatcher Mrs Margaret Thatcher The Prime Minister, Leader of the Conservative Party

This question came up at our last Question Time on Tuesday afternoon. I said on that occasion that the Government had taken certain measures to try to increase building. We have increased the tax allowance that is available for commercial and industrial buildings. That was meant directly to help the building industry. We have reduced the development land tax. That is another measure directed towards helping the building industry. Many of us would very much like to allocate a greater proportion of Government expenditure to capital spending. That would mean allocating a smaller proportion to current spending. Unless we have that side of the equation, we shall not be able to do what the hon. Gentleman wishes.

Photo of Mr Ivor Stanbrook Mr Ivor Stanbrook , Bromley Orpington

asked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Thursday 30 July.

Photo of Mrs Margaret Thatcher Mrs Margaret Thatcher The Prime Minister, Leader of the Conservative Party

I refer my hon. Friend to the reply that I gave some moments ago.

Photo of Mr Ivor Stanbrook Mr Ivor Stanbrook , Bromley Orpington

As having property of one's own is one of the great stabilising factors of our democratic society and needs to be encouraged, especially in the urban areas that have suffered civil disturbances, will my right hon. Friend confirm that the Government will press on with their programme of encouraging council tenants to buy their own homes and resist any obstruction by Labour councils to try to prevent tenants exercising their legal rights?

Photo of Mrs Margaret Thatcher Mrs Margaret Thatcher The Prime Minister, Leader of the Conservative Party

I agree that we want as many people as possible to have personal property of their own. The first step towards that is the ownership of one's home. About 250,000 people have applied under our legislation to purchase their own council houses. Some of the authorities that were not making very rapid progress are making much faster progress following the inquiries of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment. I can confirm that we shall not allow tenants to be denied their legal rights in purchasing their own homes.

Photo of Mr Eric Heffer Mr Eric Heffer , Liverpool, Walton

When is the Secretary of State for the Environment likely to make a statement on his visit to Liverpool? I understand that he will not be able to make a statement to the House before the recess. Will the right hon. Lady say whether we shall hear some positive proposals from the right hon. Gentleman in the near future? We need a programme that will get youngsters to work, that will clear the sites and provide training in the area, a programme that will lead to better housing and education facilities and that will help local authorities, not by rate support grant cuts but by providing greater financial aid to enable them to assist areas such as Toxteth.

Photo of Mrs Margaret Thatcher Mrs Margaret Thatcher The Prime Minister, Leader of the Conservative Party

I cannot say when such a report will be ready. I am convinced that it will be a thorough document when my right hon. Friend presents it to the House. The hon. Gentleman referred to a number of problems, such as education expenditure. He will know that a considerable sum has been spent on education in Liverpool. Money has been spent on new schools, and some of them are not full and will not be full because the demographic pattern has changed. The hon. Gentleman will remember that we used to put extra money into providing extra teachers in deprived areas. That was done in my time. I understand that about 190 of the 330 schools in Liverpool are benefiting from that legislation. We provided extra teachers in deprived areas and gave them extra pay. We have put a good deal of money into Liverpool. I am not certain whether it has ever been properly applied or properly co-ordinated. I agree with the hon. Gentleman that it is appalling how much dereliction has been allowed to stay in Liverpool without being cleared.

Photo of Anthony Steen Anthony Steen , Liverpool Wavertree

Will my right hon. Friend dissociate herself from the outrageous remarks of the chairman of the Merseyside police committee, who, by justifying the continued rioting, is undermining the morale of the Merseyside police force, the members of which are trying to do their job of maintaining law and order in spite of the sniping by the chairman of their own police committee?

Photo of Mrs Margaret Thatcher Mrs Margaret Thatcher The Prime Minister, Leader of the Conservative Party

I read the reports to which my hon. Friend refers. There can be no excuse for the violence that we have seen, and those who suggest otherwise from positions of authority bear a terrible responsibility for their remarks.

Photo of Mr Michael English Mr Michael English , Nottingham West

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I understand the courtesies of the House but I cannot allow the slur of the hon. Member for Liverpool, Wavertree (Mr. Steen) to pass. Lady Simey—

Photo of Mr George Thomas Mr George Thomas , Cardiff West

Order. That is not a point of order. That is part of the debate.

Photo of Mr Michael English Mr Michael English , Nottingham West

On a further point of order, Mr. Speaker.

Photo of Mr George Thomas Mr George Thomas , Cardiff West

It is not a point of order that the hon. Gentleman seeks to raise. The Prime Minister is responsible for her statements as everybody else is responsible for theirs. It is not a point of order for me to deal with.

Later—

Photo of Mr George Thomas Mr George Thomas , Cardiff West

I hope that the hon. Member, who is experienced, will not try to pursue an argument about a reply that was given. If he has a point of order connected with Standing Orders or the customs of the House, I shall take it. However, I shall look poorly on something that is not a point of order.

Photo of Mr Michael English Mr Michael English , Nottingham West

I believe that there is a custom in this privileged place that if a person is attacked there should be at least one simple sentence in defence—

Photo of Mr George Thomas Mr George Thomas , Cardiff West

Order. Not in my time in the House.

Photo of Mr Eric Heffer Mr Eric Heffer , Liverpool, Walton

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. In view of the statement that you have made, Mr. Speaker, could you explain how someone such as Lady Simey, a respected member of the Labour Party, who has been a member of the Labour Party since she was a young girl, who is now 75 years of age, is experienced and whose record on Merseyside is well known, could have some right of replying to the points that were made to her? [HON. MEMBERS: "Cheating."]

Photo of Mr George Thomas Mr George Thomas , Cardiff West

I do not like that word to be used, because it is not fair. The hon. Member was trying to put in a point of order something to which I listened with great care, but the hon. Gentleman will know that this is not the first time that a person outside the House has been criticised, and that is part of the privilege of speech in this House.

Photo of Mr Michael English Mr Michael English , Nottingham West

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. You asked me to refer myself to the customs of Parliament, Mr. Speaker. Is it not true that hitherto attacks on Members of the other House, their wives or their widows have not been permitted, unless formally?

Photo of Mr George Thomas Mr George Thomas , Cardiff West

The hon. Member is right about attacks upon Members of another place. Until the hon. Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heffer) spoke, I did not know who was the person involved. I deal with everyone on the same basis. If the person is a member of another place— [HON. MEMBERS: "She is not."] I suggest that we move on.

Photo of Mr Alfred Dubs Mr Alfred Dubs , Wandsworth Battersea South

asked the Prime Minister if she will list her public engagements for 30 July.

Photo of Mrs Margaret Thatcher Mrs Margaret Thatcher The Prime Minister, Leader of the Conservative Party

I refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply that I gave some moments ago.

Photo of Mr Alfred Dubs Mr Alfred Dubs , Wandsworth Battersea South

Is the package of employment measures announced by the right hon. Lady a few days ago to be regarded as a sign of the success or failure of the Government's policies?

Photo of Mrs Margaret Thatcher Mrs Margaret Thatcher The Prime Minister, Leader of the Conservative Party

Had the hon. Gentleman listened to the debate, he would have heard the argument that overmanning has gone on in British industry for years. It is essential to have demanning to get industries competitive. That inevitably means that in the shorter run we shall have some increase in unemployment. We cannot leave the position as it is. Therefore, we are taking steps to try to relieve the worst of the hardship. That seems an excellent strategy and a humane way in which to tackle the problem.

Photo of Mr John Biggs-Davison Mr John Biggs-Davison , Epping Forest

In view of the distress in Poland, will my right hon. Friend consider today what more could be done to bring the surpluses of free enterprise agriculture to the relief of the victims of Socialism?

Photo of Mrs Margaret Thatcher Mrs Margaret Thatcher The Prime Minister, Leader of the Conservative Party

The countries of the European Community, both separately and jointly, have been doing all that they can to make food available to Poland by sending food there and by extending credit facilities. It is important that we continue to do so. The time must come when improved production in Poland takes over.

Photo of Mr Michael Foot Mr Michael Foot , Ebbw Vale

As the right hon. Lady is taking credit for her achievements, will she tell us which of her achievements gives her the greatest source of satisfaction? Is it the record 7 per cent. fall in output, or the record 20 per cent. fall in manufacturing production? Is it the achievement of a record level of unemployment of 2·85 million? Is it the record rate of increase in unemployment or is it the record loss of international competitiveness of 35 per cent. in two years, something quite unprecedented over previous years? Is it the rise in prices of 35 per cent. over two years of inflation, is it the increase in the tax burden of 10 per cent. in two years, or is it the rise in the income tax burden for everyone except the very rich?

Photo of Mr Michael Foot Mr Michael Foot , Ebbw Vale

Will the right hon. Lady state her priority? Does she wish to take credit for the record number of bankruptcies? Will she tell us which achievement she puts in position No. 1?

Photo of Mrs Margaret Thatcher Mrs Margaret Thatcher The Prime Minister, Leader of the Conservative Party

The guts to tackle the problems from which the right hon. Gentleman has flinched.

Photo of Mr Michael Foot Mr Michael Foot , Ebbw Vale

I shall seek to send away the right hon. Lady in a good mood. All of us were gratified about the event yesterday, but all of us know that the Government had nothing to do with it. No doubt that is the reason for its success. We wish that our finances could be run in the same way. We should like this information to be broadcast throughout the world. The Government had nothing to do with it, and, therefore, it was a great success.

Photo of Mrs Margaret Thatcher Mrs Margaret Thatcher The Prime Minister, Leader of the Conservative Party

If that is all that the right hon. Gentleman has to say, why does he say it?

Several Hon. Members:

rose—

Photo of Mr George Thomas Mr George Thomas , Cardiff West

Order. Business Questions.

Photo of Mr Raymond Powell Mr Raymond Powell , Ogmore

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. There were interruptions during Prime Minister's Questions regarding a point of order. Should you not have allowed a certain time after Prime Minister's Questions?

Photo of Mr George Thomas Mr George Thomas , Cardiff West

I am sorry for the hon. Member, but only seconds were taken up by that point of order.

Photo of Mr William Clark Mr William Clark , Croydon South

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I know that it is the custom in this House to let the Leader of the Opposition have a certain amount of licence, but I am sure that today every Back Bencher and possibly many Front Benchers have felt that that privilege has been highly abused. I am convinced that if an ordinary Back Bencher had attempted to do a similar thing, he would soon have been stopped.

Photo of Mr George Thomas Mr George Thomas , Cardiff West

The hon. Member is probably correct in his last comment, but, as I have said many times, the Leader of the Opposition is allowed extra latitude. The Leader of the Opposition, whoever it may be, always bears that in mind.