I am glad that my hon. Friend gets up early enough in the morning to hear the BBC news. I recognise that he, like me, must be concerned about what took place in Turin last night. I also realise, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that if I try to proceed on that subject I shall be ruled out of order. I congratulate my hon. Friend on getting away with his intervention.

We are talking about a deep-seated malaise where, as the Under-Secretary of State rightly said, we have been good on ideas but bad on translating those ideas into profitable manufacturing production of the right quality and at the right price and time. We have had a cascade of good ideas—Concorde, the advanced passenger train, the Rolls-Royce RB-211—but we have fallen down on translating those ideas into manufacturing production. That is where our engineering faults come to the surface.

There is a popular myth that we do not need to worry about that because North Sea oil will somehow get us through. The Opposition do not accept that. The Finniston report says significantly : There is no prospect that the contributions from natural resources (including North Sea oil gas or coal) or growth in other sectors of the economy can generate wealth on the scale which can be earned by manufacturing industry; for example the contribution of North Sea oil to GDP in 1978 was £2.3 billion, equivalent to 8 per cent. of the contribution made by manufacturing to total national value-added. That is the size of the manufacturing contribution and the size of the problem that we are discussing this morning. Even if we bring it down to individual firms and to the microeconomic level and look at the problems of firms such as British Leyland, British Aerospace Rolls-Royce and British Airways, we find that over and over again there is a critical shortage of skilled engineers. If we look at the problems of British Leyland in the development of new models, and at the reasons for the slowing down of some of the advanced techniques in British Aerospace, we find that a critical shortage of skilled engineers is holding those companies back. Both on a macro—and a microeconomic level, and in historical perspective, we cannot escape the fact that this emphasis on engineering qualification, education and training and the realisation of the importance of engineering in manufacturing is belated. Something must be done about it.

In its conclusion, the Finniston report states : Britain's survival as an advanced industrial nation depends critically upon her manufacturing companies moving up-market into the production of high quality, high value-added goods, utilising the best of current knowledge and technology, and directed towards areas where world demand is growing or can be generated most rapidly and where competition from newly-industrialised countries is initially least severe. That points to higher engineering s tandards.

The Finniston report also states : While engineering excellence is not the only determinant of manufacturing prosperity, the example of the most successful companies shows that it is essential to continuing competitiveness. So, manufacturing is important, and if we are to get into the sort of manufacturing industry that will enable us to survive industrially, engineering is a key provision.

Having stressed the deep-seated and long-standing nature of the problem, we say, in response to Finniston and in response to the Government, that there is a need to act quickly. There cannot be a continuing series of deliberations and consultations. We need to act now. Time is not on our side. If we are to train engineers to the high level that Finniston envisages, it will take between five and a half and six years. Even if we start to act now, it will be 10 years before some of the newly-qualified engineers are able to take their place in the manufacturing sector. There is a long gestation period. Faced with the present critical situation in many of our key manufacturing industries, it could be too late in 10 years' time. The Government must act now, and they must act positively.

I was a little worried when I heard the Minister say that the emphasis in some quarters could be left to others. It is because successive Governments have left the emphasis to others that nothing has happened. We believe that there is a positive role to be played by the Government. As the Under-Secretary rightly said, and as Finniston rightly says, the key recommendation is the creation of the engineering authority. The report states : The engineering authority would provide both a focus and an impetus for improvements in all the diverse aspects of the engineering dimension, at national and company level, considered in this report. I hope that the Government will not try to get away from the central importance of the engineering authority. I stress that if the onus and responsibility are to be transferred to the existing institutions and to the employers, not very much will happen. It is because the buck has been passed to the employers, the institutions and to the Council of Engineering Institutions over successive generations of manufacturing industry that nothing very much has happened. We believe that there is a need for the authority, and a need for the Government to act positively. The TUC, the CBI, the Engineering Employers Federation and other major institutions, including the Institution of Electrical Engineers, attach great importance to the idea of the engineering authority.

We need a central body that can promote the engineering dimension. We cannot leave that to the institutions. We cannot leave it to the employers. The Government should recognise that there is a need for a body in this country to promote the engineering dimension and to speak for engineering. People in the media say that one of their problems is that when they want to find somebody to speak for engineering, they cannot immediately think of anybody who does that. Even at the presentational level there is a need to present the engineering dimension.

We believe that there is a need to take a major step forward in registration and licensing. There are complications—I do not want to develop them this morning—in regard to the need for licensing, but we believe that from many aspects the concept of self-regulation appears to have failed.

It is interesting in this connection to look at the historical precedents that have been set in other countries that already have some State-endorsed registration and licensing system. They have been able to make more advances than we have, simply because they have such a system.

In the case of large civil or mechanical engineering projects requiring large injections of public money, we believe that the Government have a responsibility to see that those working on the project are properly qualified, properly registered, and perhaps licensed. The concept of self-regulation—so often vaunted in this country—has, we believe, been tested and found wanting.

I endorse what the Institution of Electrical Engineers says in this connection. It believes that engineers on projects up and down the country in manufacturing industries must be indentifiable. That does not automatically happen at the moment. The institution also believes that there should be accountability. We should be able to know who are the engineers on projects, how they got their qualifications and what they are able to do. It would be reassuring to the public to be able to know that engineers involved in manufacturing industry, and particularly on large projects in the public sector, were being supervised by properly qualified engineers. We do not have that kind of assurance at the moment.

We also feel—and again I endorse what the IEE has said on the subject—that if there were a system of registration leading to licensing, that would enable pressure to be put on many of the educational institutions from which a response is required. It is not just a matter of leaving it to the authority. It is a matter of what the authority would be able to do via the mechanism of registration and licensing, to get other bodies to play their part as well. That is why we say to the Government that it cannot be left to the existing bodies. A stimulus is required, and the best stimulus could come from the authority.

I should like to mention what the Finniston report says about the interface between industry and education, because the educational side is just as important as the other side. I welcome this morning the participation of the Under-Secretary of State for Education and Science in our debate. I am sure that he will have found—as I did when I was covering this area in the Department of Industry—that there is not merely a little gulf or gap between education and industry; in many parts of the country there is a great roaring chasm between them. Industry feels that the educational process is not producing the kind of people that it would like to see. Educational institutions, in their turn, feel that industry is not making the best use of their products. When I was at the Department of Industry I was involved in several activities designed to bring industry and education a little closer together. I therefore welcome the involvement of the two Departments in the debate this morning.

In the summary of recommendations. No. 18 states : Every effort should be made in schools to ensure that as many young people as possible retain the option to enter engineering and that they are properly informed about the attractions of an engineering career. I am reminded of the story of the schoolteacher who was taking a party of her pupils round a drop-forging factory in Darlaston. When she came out she said "If you do not behave yourselves, that is where you will end up". If we have that kind of concept of industry, obviously children will tend to go into banks, building societies and local government. We want to turn them back to engineering and manufacturing and to enable them to understand the critical role of manufacturing in our economy and, indeed, in our society.

I hope that the Government will realise—as the previous Labour Government realised in setting up the inquiry—that a major initiative is necessary. It is not the kind of thing that can be left to others. The Government have to be involved. Had the existing organisations, such as the Council of Engineering Institutions, and many of the individual institutions, been doing their job properly in terms of self-regulation, there would have been no need for the inquiry.

It is interesting to note the opposition that came from some of the institutions, such as the mining engineers, the production engineers, the mechanical engineers and the civil engineers, all of which set their face against the inquiry. It would seem that by so doing they recognised that an inquiry would recommend some significant changes.

We believe that the matter cannot be left to the institutions alone or to the CEI. It cannot be left simply to the employers and the manufacturers. The Government will have to do something, and it is our belief that the engineering authority is a key part of the Finniston recommendations. This does not mean that the institutions will disappear. They could have a valuable role in helping the authority with accreditation and with the promotion of new ideas.

I do not want to see the institutions disappear—many of them have played a very valuable role—but they may need some reorganisation and regrouping. I pay tribute to the role that many of them have played. We want to build on what many of them have achieved already, but this will require another body, with the sort of initiative that the authority can provide.

We welcome the fact that there is to be a national conference in October on the education and training side, but I have not time to say more about that this morning.

I suggest to the Government—particularly remembering their all-pervading passion for reducing public expenditure—that it will not cost a great deal of money to set up an engineering authority. Initially, it need not be a very big body. The sum of £10 million has been mentioned. I do not want to make any comparisons with what the Government are spending money on elsewhere, but to spend £10 million on setting up an engineering authority would probably be a good deal more useful than spending the money on nuclear submarines. I could go on to make other comparisons.

It is to be hoped that the Government are serious about our survival as a manufacturing nation and about the need to maintain momentum. Indeed, it was the Minister who said that the momentum had to be maintained. He has recognised that already. The Finniston report has created a momentum. It has created renewed interest in engineering. It has centred much attention on the problems involved. We hope that the Government will now take up the challenge provided by the Finniston report. We look forward to the setting up of the authority at an early date. I emphasise again that this is not a discussion in which the Government can stand on the sidelines. They must be involved actively, and as soon as possible.