Or reselection. It is the independence that is needed, so that they can look at the wider picture. That is important.

I put my next comment to the hon. Member for Poole. I put it as respectfully as I can, because he has a lot of experience in these matters, and I have very little—perhaps only a lawyer's feeling for criticism of what others do ; I do not know. The experience with the Council of Engineering Institutions shows that a body built on a delegate basis puts people into a straitjacket. I do not think, to judge from what I have read, that the authority could work on that basis. However, I go this far : I believe that initially it must be appointed by the Government, that somehow it must work to be, if not self-regulating, self-governing, as soon as possible. This is a profession that needs a degree of launching and priming. The last thing that it needs is nannying.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Swansea, West (Mr. Williams) spoke about the difficulties that would arise in such an authority, with so many different groups revolving round. It occurred to me that the solution might be to have a series of rotating chairmanships, at any rate for an initial period, so that the chair would go from representatives of a particular sphere after a period of, say, two or three years on to the next. Perhaps every third or fourth chairman might be a layman. I believe that in that way there would be much greater interest, and it might help some of those who object to being left out and some of those who object to being brought in. Perhaps some thought will be given to that idea in due course as the authority emerges—if, as I hope, it does emerge.

The question of the Privy Council, raised by the hon. Member for Ripon (Dr. Hampson), causes me slight difficulty, because, like the Minister and my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol, North-East, I think that the idea of having the Privy Council is intended to solve a particular problem but that it does not sove it, because in the end there is a Minister responsible, and in this case it is the Lord President. In the future he may be someone who knows something about the subject, but I have known many Lords President in my time, and I would not have put any of them in charge of the engineering profession. Perhaps we are really looking for a single channel of representation so that this child knows where its home is. That can no doubt be worked out in due course.

I find the arguments against the statutory regisration of qualified engineers extraordinary. It seems to me to be an absolute imperative. The irony is that in many of the countries where each of the major institutions has members there are systems of statutory registration. It is nothing new or unusual. It is extraordinary that in this country today an engineer does not need professional qualifications in order to practise. Unqualified people can describe themselves as engineers and can work and offer advice, just as before about 1922 anybody could call himself a dentist if he wishes. Sixty years later, I prefer the qualification and the registration that evolved in that industry.

I do not want to deal for too long with education and training, partly because I promised the Minister that I would give him enough time—and I am very much aware of the clock—but also because I very much approve of the idea of the two-day conference in October. I think that we shall learn a great deal from that, perhaps more than at this stage I would want to contribute, although I take many of the points made by my hon. Friends, particularly my hon. Friends the Members for Cannock (Mr. Roberts) and for Wolverhampton, North-East and by Conservative hon. Members. Some sort of basis ought to come out of the October conference, and I am happy for the moment to suspend my judgment on it.

I end with one thought which touches partly on education and training and partly on the general scope of this subject. We have not got bad engineers——