It is encouraging that the Government have given a number of indications, including the speech of my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State, that they will not sit back following the publication of the Finniston report. The report draws attention to problems that are highly relevant to Britain's current economic malaise. It makes many positive and constructive proposals. Sir Monty Finniston has drawn attention to the fact that previous reports on these matters have, unfortunately, been pigeonholed. I echo his heartfelt sentiments that urgent action is vital, in justice, to those who have contributed in many ways to the report. Some of its recommendations are controversial. My hon. Friend the Member for Poole (Mr. Ward) indicated that in his speech. Proper consultation with all the interested parties is essential, although I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol, West (Mr. Waldegrave) that they should not provide an excuse for delay.

The report has already been usefully debated in another place, and I congratulate the Government on finding time for this debate today. We should not draw too much significance from the fact that it has been relegated to a Friday because of the heavy legislative programme. I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Ripon (Dr. Hampson) that it is sad that more hon. Members could not have been here to listen and to contribute to the debate, but I understand their desire to be in their constituencies today. In my experience in the House during the last year I have found that many of the best debates have taken place on Fridays.

Central to Finniston's analysis of the present situation is the fact that the status of the engineer in this country is lower than it should be. Every hon. Member who spoke used the word "status ". Many people who should consider engineering as a career are deterred from doing so, perhaps because they are frightened of getting their hands dirty, or perhaps because engineering jobs in private industry are not sufficiently highly regarded in comparison with the risks. When the return on capital employed in companies is only about 2 per cent. or 3 per cent., I do not think that any further elaboration from me is necessary. I agree that the status of the engineer should be elevated, and the creation of an engineering authority can do much to advance the engineering dimension in national economic life, and particularly in manufacturing. I should like to consider what is meant by "status ". The report takes full account of the need for all the bodies and agencies to work closely together with industry. It also calls for more cooperation between universities and colleges, and large and small companies. In this regard we can learn a great deal from the examples that the French and Germans can provide. Perhaps as a means of according proper status to engineers and to the engineering profession, Finniston puts forward new degree programmes leading to the awards of Bachelor of Engineering and Master of Engineering degrees, and also a package leading to registration as a registered associate engineer for those engineers who will play a vital, practical supporting role.

There is a vital need for specialist engineers, but, as the report acknowledges, there is also a need to bridge the gap between engineering and management. The answer is not necessarily to graft on a management unit to a course that is predominantly concerned with engineering. It is all too easy to do that and to think that the management side has been dealt with. That is not enough. The needs of industry for future managers can be met advantageously by educational routes additional to those proposed by Finniston. Interdisciplinary courses—such as that in industrial technology and management which takes place at the University of Bradford, which I visited recently—provide an increasing number of graduates for production management and related functions in manufacturing industry.

The course that I have just mentioned is a broadly-based one, which bridges the gap between industry, engineering and management. It includes two placements in industry providing opportunities for the sort of practical experience which several hon. Members have mentioned as being absent from many courses embarked on at the present time.

Those who have graduated from this course have gained positions in production and marketing, in management services, in research, in purchasing, in personnel and in finance, as well as in engineering. The programme provides an understanding of the principles of materials, of engineering technology and of quantitative techniques, but also examines the social context of production, including communication and marketing, and covers the theory and practice of organisations and industrial relations. This kind of course should go some way towards resolving the problem about communications in industry that was highlighted by the right hon. Member for Swansea, West (Mr. Williams).

Each student has to complete two major academic projects, and some graduates will use their experience as a basis for a more specialised course in engineering. In those cases the course provides a start, but only a start.

One of the five major elements in the course is called "Man in Industry ". I do not think that this automatically means that woman in industry is excluded. It is interesting to note that the number of women who take this more broadly-based course is very much greater than the number of those going into engineering as a whole, which seems to me to be another reason to commend it.

I hope that it will be agreed that the more broadly-based approach has a great deal to commend it, particularly because our peculiarly British failing has not been in inventiveness or engineering skills but in exploiting our inventions successfully. The danger is that the publicity and prestige associated with the academic qualifications that Finniston proposes may deflect all the best students into specialist engineering courses, whereas many of them would have much to gain from a more broadly-based course that docs not preclude subsequent specialisation.

Perhaps rapidly changing technology makes the need for a broader understanding particularly great. The report takes account of this factor. As is stated in the summary, engineers need a wider perception of their role in a business enterprise than now seems to satisfy many of them. We must make sure that the pursuit of excellence takes sufficient account of the fact that this excellence can be achieved in various different ways.

I was particularly interested in what my hon. Friend the Member for Ripon had to say about Hong Kong and Japan. In Japan, the marketing came first. After the war Japan imported its technology but became extremely expert at marketing it, even though it may have acquired the technology only on licence. Since then the engineering skills have come, and Japanese products are as good as any, but it was the marketing skill and the ability to promote the products that created the great growth that we all know about in Japan.

I mentioned the need to raise the status of engineers" but it is surely extremely important to stress that they must not become a race apart, in the way that was suggested by my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol, West. He said that he would regret that, and I would regret it just as much. Engineers need to keep their feet firmly on the ground.

I suggest that part of the problem is that almost anyone who is slightly involved in the engineering industry likes to call himself or herself an engineer. A fitter with the slightest skill may call himself an engineer. This has made it more difficult to increase the prestige of the profession.

More prestige does not necessarily mean separate facilities. British engineers have tended to go for prestige and status because there has not been the remuneration that engineers and managers in other countries have been able to obtain. They have looked for facilities such as separate dining rooms.

We have a great deal to learn from the Japanese, who have no sense of aloofness. In Japan everybody is working for the same ends, whether it is the managing director or the sweeper. If someone does not turn up to work on the shop floor because he is ill, the manager will work on his machine. It will not be thought that he has lost any status, or that his dignity is reduced because he has done so.

The search for what I think is the wrong sort of status in British industry comes about because in many instances other rewards have been absent. Raising the status of the engineering profession should not divide engineers from others among the work force. That is a factor that the engineering authority should take into account.

The authority must also ensure that industry plays its part in bridging the gap between it and academic and training institutions. For example, in the training of medical students it is taken for granted that hospital experience will be made available. Industry should accept an equally positive role in the training of its future management. I understand that at Bradford university those who run the course that I have described find difficulty in persuading firms to take on those who participate in the sandwich part of the course that they run.

The engineering industry training board, which I visited a few weeks ago, provides support. However, that support needs to be regulated in a much more logical way. The chairman of the board, Lord Scanlon, made an extremely powerful speech on the report when it was debated in another place. More well-aimed publicity is needed to encourage industry to make places available for relevant undergraduate experience.

In welcoming the report's conclusions, I merely argue that creating the formal structures and putting the legislative requirements on the statute book will not be enough. We may think that that implementation will be enough and that as a result all the problems will be solved. Nothing could be further from the truth. The implementation of the proposals in the report would provide, to use Sir Montague Finniston's own words, "an engine for change ". The engine will need continually to be fuelled and to receive regular maintenance if it is to operate efficiently and to the benefit of engineering and of Britain as a whole.