I doubt whether I am expected to follow the course outlined by the hon. Member for Poole (Mr. Ward). I remind him that he is, I think, a graduate of St. Andrews university, which, I imagine, was set up by the Government of the day. He ought, therefore, to accept that form of Government interference in industry and education.

My first point is that, while we are discussing the broader implications of Finniston, this debate is not really about an inquiry into the general aims of the engineering dimension. The report is really about British industry. I suggest that we are discussing a non-political matter. It is not an apolitical matter. The divisions of opinion which have been expressed across the Chamber, which have been demonstrated in many of the excellent speeches, are not party political.

Without discounting the broad terms of reference contained in the report, I do not think that we are talking about primary or secondary schools, engineering education or professional institutions. Rather, I believe that we are talking about British manufacturing industry, its relative decline and its relationship to the vital engineering dimension.

With my background as a failed engineer and a past economist, it is not my intention to knock British industry. However, our survival as a leading manufacturing nation is directly attributable to United Kingdom industry. Our difficulties reside not in the fact that we must be as good as our major competitors but rather in the fact that the nature of our economy requires us to be better. Generally, I do not think that we are succeeding in that regard.

If we take a narrow definition of engineering industry to include mechanical engineering, instrument engineering and electrical engineering, an index of industrial production with 1975 as its base of 100 shows a decline to 97·5 in 1976, 97·7 in 1977 and 99·4 in 1978, rising to a mere 101·3 in 1979, with an almost certain impression that there will be a fall in 1980. The total numbers employed in the industries show a fall from a peak of 2,073,000 in 1966 to 1,783,000 in 1979.

Many would argue—and I caution them against it—that the United Kingdom is entering a post-industrial phase, and that the numbers in such industries are bound to decline. I resist that argument because its acceptance manifests a dangerous outlook. Such an acceptance has blunted our competitive instincts and led us to the view that we have to succumb to the fear of competition from abroad. That has considerable sociological implications because it goes against the British character.

While I am concerned about industry, I am also concerned about the man and, with respect to my hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, North-East (Mrs. Short), the woman also. It is significant that during the debate no one has mentioned the great area of recruitment and educational potential that lies in the young women in Britain. I was remarkably put down when I visited the United States recently. One young lady, whom I addressed in a cavalier fashion by asking "Are you a secretary or a personal assistant?" replied "No, I am an engineer. "She flashed her fraternity ring at me showing the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. I wished that the floor would open up and swallow me. That is an indication of the vast reservoir of talent to be culled into the engineering profession.

As many have indicated, the engineering industry is not one of oil and grease, but a sophisticated area of activity. I shall quote the Kipling poem "M'Andrew's Hymn ", which refers to an old Scots engineer, in his lowly fashion, saying : What I ha' seen since ocean-steam began Leaves me no doot for the machine : but what about the man? Indeed, what about the man and the woman? If we acknowledge that the wide-ranging inquiry advocated by the Secretary of State will produce results, we must ask : "What sort of results are we expecting?" The danger of such an inquiry is that the Secretary of State will go for a consensus and the lowest common denominator. He should not do that. He should be bold and imaginative.

The lowest common denominator approach is the one that we have heard from the hon. Member for Poole—the approach of the Council of Engineering Institutions that wants to defend the status quo. That will not do. Its major arguments are about self-regulation and the fact that manufacturing industry accounts for fewer than half the number of professional engineers. It is not my intention to disparage the role of the CEI. I prefer to consider the most positive submissions coming to the Secretary of State from the Institution of Civil Engineers, the Institution of Mechanical Engineers the Institution of Electrical Engineers and their broad acceptance of Finniston. I do not quarrel greatly with the concept that the engineering authority might come under the Privy Council. That does not worry me unduly, although I should prefer a stronger statutory body.

I do not like the term "Central Engineering Authority ". I should prefer "Council of British Engineering ". I support the hon. Member for Poole in arguing for the retention of the title "chartered engineer ". However, one point with which we should concern ourselves is that made by the former president of the Amalgamated Union of Engineering Workers, Lord Scanlon, in his excellent maiden speech in the other place. As a member of that union, I, too, ask : "Who will pay? "If the education and training of professional engineers is to be industry-orientated, industry must make its contribution. That will bring a closer interrelationship between the academic profession and institutions and industry. But the Government must also make their contribution. They cannot stand back and expect the initiative to come from both sides of industry and the academic institutions, including the universities.

I am attracted to the teaching company scheme initiated by the Department of Industry and the Science Research Council four or five years ago. Under that scheme, industries second staff who are graduates to work jointly with universities in tackling problems encountered in industry. I am heartened to learn that this type of problem-solving approach is increasingly finding its way into the educational programmes of undergraduates. That is the way that we wish to go.

I turn now to the concept of the central authority, or whatever name we give to it. My main desire is that it should have power to focus national attention on the importance of engineering and the engineer and to produce an annual report for debate in the House. How we get that interrelationship is a matter for discussion and debate. But it is essential that we draw the attention of the nation, through the House, to the engineering dimension so that we can all measure progress from one year to another. That would involve the Government of the day taking decisions arising from the report and would call increasing public attention to them.

I realise that these are broad and complicated aspects. Finniston has indicated where we are now—point A—and has given us a desirable goal—point B. It is difficult, in the realms of discussion and the number of people we have to take with us, to see how we can reach those suggested aims. The important point is to call the attention of the public to the significance of the engineering dimesion.

At the risk of upsetting my hon. Friend the Member for Nuneaton (Mr. Huckfield), I suggest that the Government should look at the public relations aspect and perhaps consider inaugurating a national engineering day. Perhaps I may be vainglorious enough to suggest James Watt's birthday, 19 January, for such a day. Only through imaginative means can we call the attention of the public to the importance of engineering and its contribution to the nation's economy. I recognise that these are complicated matters. However, we shall not attain the objects envisaged in the Finniston report if the Government of the day are not bold and imaginative. I appreciate that we shall have to go through the educational aspects later in the year.

It may be a carping criticism on which to end, but it is a great disappointment to me that no Scottish Minister has seen fit to grace the Government Front Bench, because no part of the United Kingdom is more dependent on ensuring the enhancement of the engineering dimension than Scotland. I wish the discussions well and earnestly hope that the Government will initiate action as soon as possible.