I am pleased to take up the remarks of the hon. Member for Lincoln (Mr. Carlisle). The small attendance in the Chamber probably reflects the absence in the House of an engineering dimension and the strong belief that Governments will not move quickly to implement some of the proposals.

Listening to the debate I have been worried by the general suggestion that the engineering problem is purely a British one. The lack of status for the engineer is widespread. It exists not only in Western countries. The other day I happened to be involved with some Russian statisticians. They told me that the man who carries out original research work in the Soviet Union receives a great deal of money and enjoys considerable status, whereas the development engineer is badly done by. The problem exists far beyond Britain, but undoubtedly there is a real British problem.

Much of the problem stems from the image of the engineer. The popular image is still that of the oily-handed mechanic. The media play some part in perpetuating it. The scientist, whether good or evil, is "a great guy" in media terms, while the engineer is given a minor role.

The real problem lies in our education system. This is where I agree entirely with the hon. Member for Lincoln. Early on in schools children get the impression that the engineer is not "respectable ". Teachers are so often divorced from the business and industrial scenes. Few of our teachers are aware of manufacturing problems in Britain. That lack of knowledge is not confined to education at primary or secondary levels. More frightening are the changes that have taken place in the polytechnics, which are extending throughout the colleges of technology. I refer to the movement away from engineering, towards the more academic courses. That cannot help the development of engineering and the growth of manufacturing industry. There is an education problem, which is worsening. I accept that my right hon. and hon. Friends have some responsibility for the movement that has taken place.

The more major problem is the attitude of employers in both the private and public sectors. It is difficult for engineers to make progress in line management and to maintain their engineering role. There has been some progress in getting more engineers into management, but few of them maintain an engineering role when they move in that direction.

I could not disagree more with my right hon. Friend the Member for Swansea, West (Mr. Williams) in his view that that difficulty is due to failure of communication on the part of engineers. That is completely wrong. The problem lies with those who appoint senior managers and directors. They appoint their like. That may change in time. The change is not taking place fast enough to meet our problems.

I welcome the report's major proposal to set up an engineering authority. The authority should be responsible to Parliament but it should represent the major engineering institutions. The authority is the greatest single contribution to providing status for engineering. However, it must not be considered an alternative to the Council of Engineering Institutions and the existing registration system. It must not be considered as an alternative to what we have already. The authority must be looked on as an addition to the existing structure.

I could not disagree more with the three-tier proposals in the Finniston report. For once, I agree with the submission of Lord Howie of Troon, who argued strongly that, as far as possible, the need was to maintain and strengthen the existing examination structure. There is a danger that the more tiers there are the greater the tendency will be to create second-rate and third-rate citizens, which we should avoid at all costs. The CNAA has made important contributions, but it has created second-rate students with the HND. Movement to a three-tier system would be wrong.

The creation of an authority is not the answer to all the problems of manufacturing and engineering. Its major contribution would be to focus attention on the problems. The question of solving them goes far deeper. The answer lies in pay and promotional opportunities in industry. As anyone in engineering knows, Government pay policies have created difficulties for graduate engineers. Many companies were unable adequately to pay their graduate engineers, many of whom had to go to smaller firms for their salary increases. We no longer have that problem. Now is the time for the private sector to ensure that their graduate engineers are paid adequately.

Promotional opportunities should be made available to engineers—and I use the term "engineer" in its widest sense. It is difficult to distinguish between mathematicians of different types. There is a leaning towards the wishy-washy disciplines—the pseudo-sciences, economics and accountancy. They tend to take precedence in promotion. The situation is possibly worse in the public sector. Few top civil servants are engineers. Many Departments have highly skilled engineers, but few of them have top jobs. That applies even more in public sector industries. How many chairmen of electricity boards have been appointed because they also had first-class engineering qualifications? Pay and promotion are the problems in the public and the private sector.

The Government must act quickly. They have three roles. First, they must set up the authority to act as a focus. More importantly, they must look at our education system. I have been involved in training engineers and I am extremely concerned about the changes. Thirdly, and most important of all, in the public sector the Government must give a lead to the private sector by demonstrating that pay and promotion opportunities are available for engineers.