I accept the hon. Gentleman's point. I do not wish to be too rigid. However, some types of work are so important that we must ensure that at least engineering consultants—possibly one could extend that category—are appropriately qualified. We must ask whether disasters such as Flixborough were necessary. One does not wish to say that anyone with an engineering degree must get various qualifications, and that unless he has such qualifications he will be denied work in certain areas.

We can easily get into far too rigid and detailed a provision. However, there is a stage into which we should move. The problem with the authority, as it stands in the Finniston report, is whether it has enough teeth. Sir Monty argues that if the key 100 companies were converted there would be a "wash-over" effect throughout industry. He believes that we must work on those companies and that there will be a osmosis effect on a body that has an educative role.

Is that good enough? If we are talking about making a radical switch, taking a dramatic step and putting some pace behind it, will that do the trick? Is there not a case for saying that if we are to have such a body, it will need some teeth in it? Should we provide that people will not be able to operate in certain areas unless they go through the pattern of training and education that is proposed and unless they obtain the qualifications that have been established? I think that there is quite a strong case for making that condition without extending the areas infinitely throughout the entire system.

The professional aspect seems to be in danger of screwing up the entire concept of the Finniston report and defeating the central purpose. As I have said, that aspect is, in my view, secondary. If necessary, some of the considerations in that area will have to be thrown aside if we are to get to the centre of this important area.

We cannot deal with engineers and the standard of engineers in isolation. It is an issue that involves the entire industrial infrastructure. It is as important, in terms of the investment that the nation makes, as the nation's investment in capital projects in general. Hence, there is a fundamental role for the Government. The Finniston report considers briefly the growth of technology and the role of education in that growth in its introduction. The history is most disturbing. I am sure that the House will not believe me if I say that I constantly read pieces of literature of the 1870s. However, in my former career I had cause to study in depth the reports of the boards of education of the 1870s. All the issues that we are now discussing emerged in those reports in many different ways.

In the 1870s there was a strong debate about how Germany and France were running ahead of Britain and it was said that Britain was not technological enough. It was argued that the new universities, such as Manchester, had to be geared to vocational levels. It was contended that it was necessary to get the business community in Manchester to put in money, and that Oxford and Cambridge were out on a track by themselves and denying the country the type of person that it needed to match the competition from abroad.

We have been through this argument time and time again. There are a number of major problems. It seems that the pressures are too strong and that not enough is ever done. Of course, something is done. Manchester was founded, but not enough is done to hold what has been done. It is not merely a matter of doing something but of holding whatever is done in the role for which it was established.

Manchester and the other provincial universities started drifting into the Oxford pattern. It is now argued in parts of the education world that the polytechnics are likewise drifting. They were founded because the traditional university pattern was not sufficiently responsive to social, economic and industrial needs. It was felt that we had to have establishments that would provide technicians and non-traditional degree-type courses. It is now said that the polytechnics have drifted from that role. Some of the arguments are exaggerated, but there is a kernel of truth in them.

There has to be a policy that is sufficient and coherent. There is no point in tinkering with part of the system. There has to be a co-ordinated approach. There has to be something that holds the function that has been established. This cannot be left in the hands of the professional institutions and the professionals. It cannot be left in the present institutional framework. We desperately need some dramatic, positive and quick action on this front. The action must be as quick as possible. The lead time is immense. We are falling rapidly behind many of our major competitors, especially those in the Far East.

This year I had the opportunity to visit Japan and Hong Kong. Both countries are seen by many hon. Members and certainly by many of my hon. Friends as the exemplars of the successful entrepreneurial economy. It is a system in which the Government stand back as against the extent to which Government have been involved in industry in Britain. However, it is telling that the Governments of Japan and Hong Kong believe that they have a critical part to play in ensuring that the industrial infrastructure is correct. There is more effort made in Japan in that direction than in Britain. From 1975 the growth rate of the polytechnic of Japan has been phenomenal.

In 1977 the Governor of Hong Kong set up a committee on the diversification of the economy. It was concerned, for example, with the problems of the textile trade. The Financial Secretary in Hong Kong is not noted for his belief in public expenditure. He has strong views on the report. However, he fully endorses that part of the report that is concerned with the education infrastructure and gearing that to the needs of industry in Hong Kong, especially the development of the watch industry and new technologies.

In Japan the council on science and technology is chaired by the Prime Minister. All the key Ministers of industry, the economy and education have a place on the committee. Why is that? It is because the Japanese believe that it is fundamental to get the right people of the right skills, background and training into industry. That is the Japanese approach, but in this country it is said "If there are problems about producing engineers of sufficient quality, industry has a part to play."

Both Front Bench spokesmen gave me the impression that we are talking about the initiative starting with industry. The implication is that there is a duty on industry. It is equally valid to break into the chicken-and-egg argument from the other side. If we can convince industry that we believe engineering to be fundamental and if we can demonstrate to it that we are producing people in the education system with the right skills, attitudes and attributes that it can use, I believe that it will respond and start hiring and using appropriately the engineers and those trained in the new technologies. It is hard to convince industry at present that that is happening, bearing in mind the sort of person who emerges from the engineering departments and the courses that they have pursued. Industry does not believe that they are of the right calibre or have taken the right course.

As the Finniston report states, we must examine in detail the provision that we are making in our universities and the practical element that at present is not in the courses that students are undertaking. In both Hong Kong and Japan, and elsewhere in Europe, these matters are thought to be so important by Governments that they try to achieve a coordinated and coherent approach which, at the end of the day, will produce the people that industry wants. In Britain we are facing the criticism that we are in danger of producing too many engineers. It is said "If we follow this route, will they all get a job? We do not seem to be short of engineers now."

In Japan it is not only the technical people in industry who have a technological background. Managers, public relations men and those on the marketing side have had an engineering or techincal background. People do not sell these days because they are salesman but because they are technical people who understand the technical aspects of a problem. They do not launch products merely on the basis of an opinion research poll. Products are launched because those concerned have researched the market and found the appropriate gap in the new technological developments that are taking place. They find the niche, they work at it and they find the right product. It is very much a technical and technological process.

In Japan those engaged in business, in the Civil Service or in ministerial positions have nearly all been through some science or technological education. The prestige thing to do is to go into an engineering department. The bulk of young people leaving school and going to university go into engineering, and preferably to the University of Tokyo. That climate must be contrasted with the climate in Britain. I do not want to be thought to be knocking our universities, our system and our engineers. However, when our system is put in the balance and a contrast is made, it seems that it is not moving, and has not done so for a long time, in the way that it should and at the pace that is required.