Public Dividend Capital

Industry Bill – in the House of Commons at 10:30 pm on 6th February 1980.

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Photo of Dr Jack Cunningham Dr Jack Cunningham Shadow Spokesperson (Business, Innovation and Skills), Shadow Spokesperson (Industry) 10:30 pm, 6th February 1980

I beg to move amendment No. 9, in page 3, leave out lines 16 to 42.

I shall be brief, as usual. Clause 3 gives the NEB the power to pass to the Secretary of State, with a consequential reduction of its capital, the proceeds of disposals that could be directed by the Secretary of State.

The way in which the clause is drafted leaves open the possibility, which the Secretary of State mentioned, that the NEB will retain some of the proceeds of its disposals for reinvestment. Without the clause, the NEB would have no power to remit the proceeds of disposals to the Government, and the much-publicised but now doubtful raising of £100 million as a contribution to the reduction of the public sector borrowing requirement would not be possible.

We are opposed to the disposal of public assets in that way. No sound commercial judgment is in evidence for insisting on the disposal.

Photo of Mr David Mitchell Mr David Mitchell , Basingstoke

The purpose of the clause is to put into effect the matters that were debated at some length on amendment No. 8. Therefore, I can be as brief as the hon. Member for White-haven (Dr. Cunningham).

As the amendment is consequential, it follows automatically that the Government feel that they should have the machinery by which they can transfer the public dividend capital by reduction and enable it to parallel the reduction in assets and money transferred to the Treasury with the reduction in the nominal public dividend capital. For that reason, we are unable to accept the amendment.

Question put, That the amendment be made:—

The House divided: Ayes 225, Noes 302.

Division No. 158]AYES[10.55 pm
Abse, LeoArcher, Rt Hon PeterBarnett, Guy (Greenwich)
Adams, AllenArmstrong, Rt Hon ErnestBarnett, Rt Hon Joel (Heywood)
Allaun, FrankAshley, Rt Hon JackBenn, Rt Hon Anthony Wedgwood
Anderson, DonaldAshton, JoeBennett, Andrew (Stockport N)
Bidwell, SydneyGrant, John (Islington C)Owen, Rt Hon Dr David
Booth, Rt Hon AlbertHamilton, W. W. (Central Fife)Palmer, Arthur
Boothroyd, Miss BettyHardy, PeterPark, George
Bradley, TomHarrison, Rt Hon WalterParry, Robert
Bray, Dr JeremyHart, Rt Hon Dame JudithPavitt, Laurie
Brown, Hugh D. (Provan)Hattersley, Rt Hon RoyPowell, Raymond (Ogmore)
Brown, Robert C. (Newcastle W)Haynes, FrankPrescott, John
Brown, Ronald W. (Hackney S)Healey, Rt Hon DenisPrice, Christopher (Lewisham West)
Brown, Ron (Edinburgh, Leith)Heffer, Eric S.Race, Reg
Buchan, NormanHogg, Norman (E Dunbartonshire)Rees, Rt Hon Merlyn (Leeds South)
Callaghan, Rt Hon J. (Cardiff SE)Holland, Stuart (L'beth, Vauxhall)Richardson, Jo
Callaghan, Jim (Middleton & P)Home Robertson, JohnRoberts, Allan (Bootle)
Campbell, IanHoram, JohnRoberts, Ernest (Hackney North)
Campbell-Savours, DaleHuckfield, LesRoberts, Gwilym (Cannock)
Canavan, DennisHudson Davies, Gwilym EdnyfedRobertson, George
Cant, R. B.Hughes, Mark (Durham)Rodgers, Rt Hon William
Carmichael, NeilHughes, Robert (Aberdeen North)Rooker, J. W.
Carter-Jones, LewisHughes, Roy (Newport)Ross, Ernest (Dundee West)
Clark, Dr David (South Shields)Janner, Hon GrevilleRowlands, Ted
Cocks, Rt Hon Michael (Bristol S)Jay, Rt Hon DouglasRyman, John
Cohen, StanleyJohn, BrynmorSandelson, Neville
Coleman, DonaldJones, Rt Hon Alec (Rhondda)Sever, John
Concannon, Rt Hon J. D.Jones, Barry (East Flint)Sheerman, Barry
Cook, Robin F.Jones, Dan (Burnley)Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert (A'ton-u-L)
Craigen, J. M. (Glasgow, Maryhill)Kaufman, Rt Hon GeraldShore, Rt Hon Peter (Step and Pop)
Crowther, J. S.Kerr, RussellShort, Mrs. Ranée
Cryer, BobKilroy-Silk, RobertSilkin, Rt Hon John (Deptford)
Cunliffe, LawrenceLambie, DavidSilkin, Rt Hon S. C. (Dulwich)
Cunningham, George (Islington S)Lamborn, HarrySilverman, Julius
Cunningham, Dr John (Whitehaven)Lamond, JamesSmith, Rt Hon J. (North Lanarkshire)
Dalyell, TamLeadbitter, TedSoley, Clive
Davidson, ArthurLeighton, RonaldSpearing, Nigel
Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli)Lestor, Miss Joan (Eton & Slough)Spriggs, Leslie
Davis, Clinton (Hackney Central)Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)Stallard, A. W.
Davis, Terry (B'rm'ham, Stechford)Litherland, RobertStewart, Rt Hon Donald (W Isles)
Deakins, EricLofthouse, GeoffreyStoddart, David
Dean, Joseph (Leeds West)Lyons, Edward (Bradford West)Stott, Roger
Dempsey, JamesMcDonald, Dr OonaghStrang, Gavin
Dewar, DonaldMcElhone, FrankStraw, Jack
Dixon, DonaldMcGuire, Michael (Ince)Taylor, Mrs Ann (Bolton West)
Dobson, FrankMcKelvey, WilliamThomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)
Dormand, JackMacKenzie, Rt Hon GregorThomas, Mike (Newcastle East)
Douglas, DickMaclennan, RobertThomas, Dr Roger (Carmarthen)
Douglas-Mann, Bruce McMahon, Andrew Thorne, Stan (Preston South)
Dubs, AlfredMcMillan, Tom (Glasgow, Central)Tilley, John
Duffy, A. E. P.McNally, ThomasTinn, James
Dunn, James A. (Liverpool, Kirkdale)McNamara, KevinTorney, Tom
Dunwoody, Mrs. GwynethMcWilliam, JohnVarley, Rt Hon Eric G.
Eadie, AlexMagee, BryanWainwright, Edwin (Dearne Valley)
Eastham, KenMarks, KennethWalker, Rt Hon Harold (Doncaster)
Ellis, Raymond (NE Derbyshire)Marshall, David (Gl'sgow, Shettles'n)Watkins, David
Ellis, Tom (Wrexham)Marshall, Dr Edmund (Goole)Weetch, Ken
English, MichaelMarshall, Jim (Leicester South)Wellbeloved, James
Evans, loan (Aberdare)Martin, Michael (Gl'gow, Springb'rn)Welsh, Michael
Evans, John (Newton)Mason, Rt Hon RoyWhite, Frank R. (Bury & Radcliffe)
Ewing, HarryMaxton, JohnWhite, James (Glasgow, Pollock)
Field, FrankMaynard, Miss JoanWhitlock, William
Flannery, Martin Meacher, Michael Wigley, Dafydd
Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)Mellish, Rt Hon RobertWilley, Rt Hon Frederick
Foot, Rt Hon MichaelMikardo, IanWilliams, Rt Hon Alan (Swansea W)
Ford, Ben Millan, Rt Hon BruceWilson, Gordon (Dundee East)
Forrester, JohnMitchell, Austin (Grimsby)Wilson, Rt Hon Sir Harold (Huyton)
Foster, DerekMorris, Rt Hon Alfred (Wythenshawe)Wilson, William (Coventry SE)
Foulkes, GeorgeMorris, Rt Hon Charles (Openshaw)Winnick, David
Fraser, John (Lambeth, Norwood)Morris, Rt Hon John (Aberavon)Woodall, Alec
Freeson, Rt Hon Reginald Morton, GeorgeWoolmer, Kenneth
Garrett, John (Norwich S)Moyle, Rt Hon Roland
Garrett, W. E. (Wallsend)Mulley, Rt Hon FrederickWrigglesworth, Ian
Ginsburg, DavidNewens, Stanley
Golding, JohnOakes, Rt Hon GordonTELLERS FOR THE AYES:
Gourlay, HarryO'Halloran, MichaelMr. James Hamilton and
Graham, TedO'Neill, Martin Mr. Hugh McCartney
Grant, George (Morpeth)Orme, Rt Hon Stanley
NOES
Adley, RobertAtkinson, David (B'mouth, East)Biffen, Rt Hon John
Aitken, JonathanBaker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone)Biggs-Davison, John
Alexander, RichardBaker, Nicholas (North Dorset)Blackburn, John
Alison, MichaelBeaumont-Dark, AnthonyBlaker, Peter
Amery, Rt Hon JulianBell, Sir RonaldBody, Richard
Ancram, MichaelBendall, VivianBonsor, Sir Nicholas
Arnold, TomBenyon, Thomas (Abingdon)Boscawen, Hon Robert
Aspinwall, JackBenyon, W. (Buckingham)Bottomley, Peter (Woolwich West)
Atkins, Rt Hon H. (Spelthorne)Bevan, David GilroyBowden, Andrew
Atkins, Robert (Preston North)Best, KeithBoyson, Dr Rhodes
Bradford, Rev. R.Hastings, StephenNewton, Tony
Bright, GrahamHavers, Rt Hon Sir MichaelNormanton, Tom
Brinton, TimHawksley, WarrenNott, Rt Hon John
Brittan, LeonHayhoe, BarneyOsborn, John
Brocklebank-Fowler, ChristopherHeddle, JohnPage, John (Harrow, West)
Brooke, Hon PeterHenderson, BarryPage, Rt Hon Sir R. Graham
Brotherton, MichaelHeseltine, Rt Hon MichaelPage, Richard (SW Hertfordshire)
Brown, Michael (Brigg & Sc'thorpe)Hicks, RobertParris, Matthew
Browne, John (Winchester)Higgins, Rt Kon Terence L.Patten, Christopher (Bath)
Bruce-Gardyne, JohnHill, JamesPatten, John (Oxford)
Bryan, Sir PaulHogg, Hon Douglas (Grantham)Pawsey, James
Buchanan-Smith, Hon AlickHolland, Philip (Carlton)Penhaligon, David
Budgen, NickHooson, TomPercival, Sir Ian
Bulmer, EsmondHordern, PeterPink, R. Bonner
Burden, F. A.Howe, Rt Hon Sir GeoffreyPollock, Alexander
Butcher, JohnHowell, Rt Hon David (Guildford)Porter, George
Butler, Hon AdamHowell, Ralph (North Norfolk)Powell, Rt Hon J. Enoch (S Down)
Cadbury, JocelynHowells, GeraintPrice, David (Eastleigh)
Carlisle, John (Luton West)Hunt, David (Wirral)Proctor, K. Harvey
Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln)Hunt, John (Ravensbourne)Pym, Rt Hon Francis
Carlisle, Rt Hon Mark (Runcorn)Hurd, Hon DouglasRaison, Timothy
Chalker, Mrs. LyndaIrving, Charles (Cheltenham)Rathbone, Tim
Channon, PaulJenkin, Rt Hon PatrickRees, Peter (Dover and Deal)
Clark, Hon Alan (Plymouth, Sutton)Jessel, TobyRees-Davies, W. R.
Clark, Sir William (Croydon South)Johnson Smith, GeoffreyRenton, Tim
Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)Johnston, Russell (Inverness)Rhodes James, Robert
Cockeram, EricJopling, Rt Hon MichaelRhys Williams, Sir Brandon
Colvin, MichaelJoseph, Rt Hon Sir KeithRidley, Hon Nicholas
Cope, JohnKaberry, Sir DonaldRifkind, Malcolm
Cormack, PatrickKellett-Bowman, Mrs ElaineRoberts, Wyn (Conway)
Corrie, JohnKershaw, AnthonyRoss, Stephen (Isle of Wight)
Costain, A. P.Kimball, MarcusRoss, Wm. (Londonderry)
Cranborne, ViscountKing, Rt Hon TomRossi, Hugh
Critchley, JulianKnight, Mrs JillRost, Peter
Crouch, DavidKnox, DavidRoyle, Sir Anthony
Dean, Paul (North Somerset)Lang, IanSainsbury, Hon Timothy
Dickens, GeoffreyLatham, MichaelSt. John-Stevas, Rt Hon Norman
Dorrell, StephenLawrence, IvanScott, Nicholas
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord JamesLawson, NigelShaw, Giles (Pudsey)
Dover, DenshoreLee, JohnShaw, Michael (Scarborough)
du Cann, Rt Hon EdwardLe Merchant, SpencerShelton, William (Streatham)
Dunn, Robert (Dartford)Lennox-Boyd, Hon MarkShepherd, Colin (Hereford)
Durant, TonyLewis, Kenneth (Rutland)Shepherd, Richard(Aldridge-Br'hills)
Eden, Rt Hon Sir JohnLloyd, Ian (Havant & Waterloo)Shersby, Michael
Edwards, Rt Hon N. (Pembroke)Lloyd, Peter (Fareham)Silvester, Fred
Eggar, TimothyLoveridge, JohnSims, Roger
Elliott, Sir WilliamLuce, RichardSkeet, T. H. H.
Emery, PeterLyell, NicholasSmith, Cyril (Rochdale)
Eyre, ReginaldMacfarlane, NeilSmith, Dudley (War. and Leam'ton)
Fairgrieve, RussellMacGregor, JohnSpeller, Tony
Faith, Mrs SheilaMacKay, John (Argyll)Spence, John
Farr, JohnMcNair-Wilson, Michael (Newbury)Spicer, Jim (West Dorset)
Fell, AnthonyMcNair-Wilson, Patrick (New Forest)Spicer, Michael (S Worcestershire)
Fenner, Mrs PeggyMcQuarrie, AlbertSproat, Iain
Finsberg, GeoffreyMadel, DavidSquire, Robin
Fisher, Sir NigelMajor, JohnStainton, Keith
Fletcher, Alexander (Edinburgh N)Marland, PaulStanbrook, Ivor
Fletcher-Cooke, CharlesMarlow, AntonyStanley, John
Fookes, Miss JanetMarshall, Michael (Arundel)Steel, Rt Hon David
Forman, NigelMarten, Neil (Banbury)Steen, Anthony
Fowler, Rt Hon NormanMaude, Rt Hon AngusStevens, Martin
Fox, MarcusMawby, RayStewart, Ian (Hitchin)
Fraser, Rt Hon H. (Stafford & St)Mawhinney, Dr BrianStewart, John (East Renfrewshire)
Fraser, Peter (South Angus)Maxwell-Hyslop, RobinStokes, John
Fry, PeterMayhew, PatrickStradling Thomas, J.
Galbraith, Hon T. G. D.Mellor, DavidTapsell, Peter
Gardiner George (Reigate)Meyer, Sir AnthonyTaylor, Robert (Croydon NW)
Gardner, Edward (South Fylde)Miller, Hal (Bromsgrove & Redditch)Tebbit, Norman
Garel-Jones, TristanMills, Iain (Meriden)Temple-Morris, Peter
Gilmour, Rt Hon Sir IanMills, Peter (West Devon)Thompson, Donald
Glyn, Dr AlanMiscampbell, NormanThorne, Neil (Ilford South)
Gorst, JohnMitchell, David (Basingstoke)Thornton, Malcolm
Gow, IanMoate, RogerTownend, John (Bridlington)
Gower, Sir RaymondMolyneaux, JamesTownsend, Cyril D. (Bexleyheath)
Greenway, HarryMontgomery, FergusTrippier, David
Grieve, PercyMoore, JohnTrotter, Neville
Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St Edmunds)Morgan, Geraintvan Straubenzee, W. R.
Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth N)Morris, Michael (Northampton, Sth)Viggers, Peter
Grist, IanMorrison, Hon Peter (City of Chester)Waddington, David
Grylls, MichaelMudd, DavidWakeham, John
Gummer, John SelwynMurphy, ChristopherWaldegrove, Hon William
Hamilton, Hon Archie (Eps'm&Ew'll)Myles, DavidWalker, Rt Hon Peter (Worcester)
Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)Neale, GerrardWalker, Bill (Perth & E Perthshire)
Hampson, Dr KeithNeedham, RichardWall, Patrick
Hannam, JohnNelson, AnthonyWaller, Gary
Haselhurst, AlanNeubert, MichaelWalters, Dennis
Ward, JohnWhitney, RaymondYoung, Sir George (Acton)
Warren, KennethWickenden, KeithYounger, Rt Hon George
Watson, JohnWiggin Jerry
Wells, John (Maidstone)Williams, Delwyn (Montgomery)TELLERS FOR THE NOES:
Wheeler, JohnWinterton, NicholasMr. Anthony Berry and Mr. Carol Mather
Whitelaw, Rt Hon WilliamWolfson, Mark

Question accordingly negatived