Northern Ireland (Government)

Part of the debate – in the House of Commons at 8:42 pm on 29 November 1979.

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Photo of Mr Tony Marlow Mr Tony Marlow , Northampton North 8:42, 29 November 1979

In answer to the first part of the hon. Gentleman's question, no, I have not served in Northern Ireland, but many of my colleagues to whom I have spoken have served in Northern Ireland. Having answered the first part of that question, I cannot answer the second part, can I?

I should like to make a point about attitude. A war is not won unless there is determination to win that war, and unless there is self-confidence and the belief that one will win, that one will make it. For years we have said that Northern Ireland will remain part of the United Kingdom so long as it wishes to do so. If we believe that we shall be successful and that our policies will work, Northern Ireland will wish to remain part of the United Kingdom. So why do we qualify the statement in that way? Northern Ireland is, and must be, part of the United Kingdom, just the same as Piddletrenthide or Ashby de la Zouche. Would you say to a Yorkshireman "You can remain part of England as long as you want to remain part of England"? We would get a "Harvey Smith". So long as we compromise and qualify this statement, we are giving encouragement to the IRA, who believe that there is a chink in our position and that they can prise us apart. I make a plea that in future, when any Minister talks about Northern Ireland, he talks about it as an internal part of the United Kingdom and on the basis that it will always be a part of the United Kingdom. It will make it easier for the Irish Republic and for our friends in the United States if they come to realise our determination and the facts that I have disclosed.

I should like to make three points about the White Paper. An economist has been defined as someone who can find 13 sides to a 12-sided argument. I believe that the person who produced this White Paper is a very clever economist. It is rather like Heinz 57 varieties. I suggest, with humility, that we should not dilly-dally. We should get on. We know what people think in Northern Ireland. If, after 10 years, we do not know what they think, I do not know that the conference will make very much difference.

The Government should have their own proposals. They should come forward with those proposals. We are asking people to have a discussion, but can they agree? Will their parties let them agree? Will the constituents of my hon. Friends from Northern Ireland, and those of Opposition Members from Northern Ireland, let their representatives agree to the same sort of thing? If we have any agreement, if we have any commonalty, will that which is agreed be the important issue or will it be the unimportant issue? Will the agreement be satisfactory? Will it be what we want, or not?

It says in the White Paper that we should transfer as wide a range of powers as possible. Why? Before I came to this House there were discussions about devolution for Scotland and Wales. Devolution was rejected. Why cannot we make Northern Ireland as Scotland and Wales—