Capital Punishment

Part of the debate – in the House of Commons at 12:00 am on 19 July 1979.

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Photo of Mr George Gardiner Mr George Gardiner , Reigate and Banstead 12:00, 19 July 1979

It is with some humility that I rise to close the debate on this subject after the speech of the right hon. Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Rees), who was so recently Home Secretary. This is a debate on a Back-Bench motion. It is therefore appropriate that one of the sponsors of the motion should try to reply to some of the points that have been raised. I am happy to associate myself entirely with the compliments paid by the right hon. Member for Leeds, South to my hon. Friend the Member for Winchester (Mr. Browne) on his maiden speech. As my hon. Friend began speaking, a certain vision appeared before my eyes of what Rear-Admiral Morgan-Giles's contribution to this debate might have been. Apart from such conjecture, the admiral, if he had been in the Gallery, would certainly have been proud of the maiden contribution of his successor.

If this debate has established one thing, it is that neither side of this argument can claim to have a monopoly of truth or a monopoly of moral concern. The right hon. Member for Leeds, South says that he does not like the method that has been adopted for debating the issue on this occasion. I do not know what other method he would have liked to see us use. Since no hon. Member coming high in the ballot for Private Members' Bills chose this as his subject, it was only appropriate that the Government should provide time for a debate, as promised in the Conservative election manifesto. It was only appropriate also that the motion should have arisen from the Back Benches.

My hon. Friend the Member for Bury St. Edmunds (Mr. Griffiths) went to some trouble to explain why we have sought a form of words that defines the principle at stake. There is no point in getting bogged down in the detail or in discussing amendments relating to detail unless there is a majority in the House of Commons in favour, in principle, of proceeding further on this matter. The discussion has rightly concentrated on those who have suffered death at the hands of others, who set about their crimes, frequently robbery, armed with guns, and those who have been the victims of terrorists.

Some common ground has been established in the course of the debate. No one has been arguing for the death sentence for crimes of passion. References that were made to Ruth Ellis are utterly irrelevant to the debate. I would remind my hon. Friend the Member for Cheltenham (Mr. Irving) and the right hon. and learned Member for Aberavon (Mr. Morris) that this is not necessarily a debate or a vote on the question of hanging. I am grateful to my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary for making it clear in his remarks that should it be the wish of the House to carry this motion and to see some legislation, he would be willing to use the intervening period to examine further alternative forms of execution.

The debate has not concentrated very much on—indeed, it has barely featured—what might be called the retributive argument in favour of the death penalty, although the argument is frequently put by the population at large. My right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Hendon, South (Mr. Thomas) mentioned it but was certainly not advocating it. The hon. Member for Belfast, South (Mr. Bradford) dealt with the concept of punishment in society which, again, is a different concept from retribution itself.

But far more of the arguments, and certainly those from the hon. Members who accept or agree with the motion that I am advocating, have concentrated on the question of deterrence. Our argument on that score is not weakened in the least by the lack of tidy statistics. The excellent background paper prepared by the House of Commons Library research division includes at the start the sentence warning us: It is hoped that the statistics that are included will be helpful both to Members arguing for and to Members arguing against the restoration of capital punishment in this country. That is an apt comment on the use of statistics.

However, some statistics have not been refuted. My hon. Friend the Member for Bury St. Edmunds reminded the House how, before the abolition of capital punishment, 43 armed robberies were committed in London in the year 1963. In 1977 that figure increased to 935, and in the current year it is almost certain to exceed 1,000.

Is it credible to argue that all those criminals would have gone out armed if the death penalty had not been abolished? Is it credible to argue that none of their victims would have been affected in any way if the law on this had been different? That argument flies in the face of all logic and common sense, and we on this side are totally unable to accept it.

The right hon. Member for Birmingham, Small Heath (Mr. Howell) raised the question of morality in this issue. I was very moved by the right hon. Gentleman's speech. Some years ago moral arguments were frequently employed in this Chamber. That happens far less often now, and perhaps there is a certain shame or reticence on the part of many in seeking to offer moral justification for the argument that they are putting.

I shall try to answer the right hon. Gentleman's question by answering another that was asked by the right hon. Member for Roxburgh, Selkirk and Peebles (Mr. Steel) and others, and which is frequently put. It is " What do you say to the danger that mistakes might be made? " We know that in the past some mistakes have been made and that some innocent men were hanged. Yes, there was the Timothy Evans case, but in our approach to the subject that is a life that has to be put in one side of the scales when we are evaluating this question—[HON. MEMBERS: " Oh."] I am trying to put a moral point and I should be most grateful if Labour Members were prepared to hear me out. Timothy Evans has to be put on one side of the scales, but there are lives that we are convinced have to be put on the other side as well if we are to reach a judgment.

We ask ourselves how many other innocent people, who found themselves the victims of killers, lost their lives because there was insufficient deterrent to those who took them. Those victims are innocent, too, and we must consider them. That is the moral question and the moral balance that many of us find ourselves having to strike.

I greatly envy the certainty of those hon. Members such as the right hon. Member for Leeds, South who seem able to assert that the existence of capital punishment would not have saved even one life. I wish that I could assert that with equal certainty or that I could assert with certainty that lives would have been saved if the death sentence were still with us.

On the statistics offered by my hon. Friend the Member for Bury St. Edmunds, I am convinced that several men and women and at least one child died largely as a result of the removal of that deterrent.

When the life of Timothy Evans is mentioned, I accept the moral argument. On the other side of the scale I claim the right to mention the life of Carl Bridgewater, the newspaper boy who was murdered when he surprised burglars in the commission of their crime.

The right hon. Member for Leeds, South quoted figures and sought to extol the virtue of the 30-year sentence. He used that argument to counter the public apprehension about the early release of many killers from gaol. I draw the right hon. Gentleman's attention to the official figures which show that between 1969 and 1978 a total of 213 murderers were released from gaol, having served nine years or less, and 348 were released after serving 12 years or less.

The right hon. Gentleman made much of terrorist killings. It is incumbent upon us to answer the argument which has been put by many hon. Members—that by reintroducing capital punishment we would make martyrs of terrorists. There is scope for martyrdom now. Why are martyrs not made of those who lose their lives in gun battles with the security forces in Ulster? [HON. MEMBERS: " They are."] We authorise those security forces to shoot in the street and to shoot to kill. Let us not say that there is no killing which is authorised by the State in society today.

My hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, North (Mr. McQuade) posed a question eloquently. He asked what kind of martyr will be created as a result of a trial which shows that a person went up to a front door, knocked on it, brought a father to it and then shot him down in front of his family. What sort of a martyr will such a man be made? How on earth can the mantle of marytrdom settle on such shoulders?

The lesson that we learn from Northern Ireland and from our experience on the mainland is that terrorists, unless they become involved in a shooting match with the security forces, are the only ones whose lives are not at risk.

We have been guilty in the debate of crediting the IRA with more heroism than that movement possesses. The report " Northern Ireland—Future Terrorist Trends " prepared by Major Glover, the director of the intelligence service, was issued by the Ministry of Defence last November. Paragraph 44 of that document states: The principle that the terrorist must have a safe method of escape is the dominant feature of Provisional IRA tactics. The Provisional IRA very seldom plan operations that involve high risk. If in doubt they abort the mission. Shooting tactics are mainly conducted on the shoot and scoot principle. In conclusion paragraph 72 states: The desire to save their own skins dominates Provisional IRA tactics. Let us have less talk of the eagerness of these people to seek martyrdom.

The debate has raised the question of our role as Members of Parliament, as representatives, and of how our own feelings and judgment relate to the views of those whom we represent. The view has been expressed that we should be leading opinion. That view was advanced 14 years ago. The hon. Member for York (Mr. Lyon) quoted Sydney Silverman extremely effectively—his hope that by abolishing capital punishment he was lighting a small candle. That lead was given 14 years ago, but the fact is that public opinion most certainly has not followed. If anything, it has moved in the opposite direction.

When I am asked by Labour Members how I justify the motion, they claim that the onus of proof is upon those who advocate change. I submit that the onus of proof is on them to justify how the House can vote contrary to the views of about 80 per cent. of the population. Theirs is the onus, not ours.

Repeated opinion polls have revealed that about 80 per cent. of our population want the return of the death penalty. Those polls have not necessarily been taken in the aftermath of an outrage. Whatever the outcome of the Division in a few minutes' time, this issue will not go away. It will not go away so long as 70 per cent. or 80 per cent. of the populace believe that capital punishment should be restored.

I recognise that many hon. Members feel that they are on something of a dilemma. On the one hand there is their own distaste for or proclaimed objection to capital punishment, and on the other hand there is their recognition of the overwhelming view of either their own constituents or the nation generally. Such hon. Members must be asking themselves, " What is the honourable course to take?" I submit that the honourable course for hon. Members who are torn in that way is to abstain. I shall explain why.

If the motion is carried, its effect will be to permit the introduction of a Bill and a full debate on it. I listened with great interest to the most eloquent speech of my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary. He pointed to all the difficulties and anomalies that could arise. However, difficulties and anomalies arise from all legislation that is presented to the House. It is our job to weigh the difficulties, to sort them out and to devise definitions to ensure that anomalies do not arise.

There is no doubt about the wish of the overwhelming majority of the citi- zees of Great Britain. They are surrounded by increasing violence and threatened by the growing indifference to human life that is shown at almost every level of criminal society. They have concluded over a period that restoring the death penalty would give them added protection. That majority view of the people is no less sincere and no less valid than our own. Tonight they look to us in Parliament to speak for them and at least to allow a Bill to be introduced whose provisions can be tested in debate. Let