Orders of the Day — WEST MIDLANDS COUNTY COUNCIL BILL [Lords]

– in the House of Commons at 12:00 am on 28th June 1979.

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Question again proposed, That the amendment be made.

Photo of Mrs Jill Knight Mrs Jill Knight , Birmingham, Edgbaston

rose in her place and claimed to move. That the Question be now put.

Question put, That the Question be now put:—

The House having proceeded to a Division, and Mr. James Pawsey and Mr. Ivan Lawrence having been appointed Tellers for the Ayes and Miss Jo Richardson and Mr. David Stoddart Tellers for the Noes:

Photo of Mr David Stoddart Mr David Stoddart , Swindon

(seated and covered): On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I have just left the Aye Lobby because there was a certain disorder as a result of an hon. Member forcing his way past the Tellers into the Lobby through the exit door. I immediately asked that the voting be stopped, and most hon. Members were prepared to accept that. However, other hon. Members forced their way through the door in spite of the fact that I declared that,

in my view, the Division was not being conducted in a proper manner. I should like your ruling, Mr. Speaker.

Photo of Mr George Thomas Mr George Thomas , Cardiff West

The hon. Gentleman, who has been here a long time, knows that if there is a complaint about a Division it must come formally from the Tellers.

It has been intimated to me that the Tellers wish to make a report. There is no purpose in continuing with the present Division, since I must have a report from the Tellers. Two of the Tellers are here. If the other Tellers will come to the Table so that all are present, I shall hear the complaint.

The Tellers having come to the Table

Photo of Mr Ivan Lawrence Mr Ivan Lawrence , Burton

I have to report. Mr. Speaker, a disagreement among the Tellers.

Photo of Mr George Thomas Mr George Thomas , Cardiff West

In view of the disagreement among the Tellers, I shall call the Division again.

Whereupon MR. SPEAKER directed the House to proceed again to a Division:

The House divided: Ayes 100, Noes 77.

Division No.32]AYES[10.20 p.m.
Alexander, RichardFairgrieve, RussellMorrison, Hon Charles (Devizes)
Arnold, TomFenner, Mrs PeggyMorrison, Hon Peter (City of Chester)
Aspinwall, JackFletcher-Cooke, CharlesMurphy, Christopher
Atkins, Rt Hon H. (Spelthorne)Fookes, Miss JanetMyles, David
Atkins, Robert (Preston North)Fowler, Rt Hon NormanNeedham, Richard
Beaumont-Dark, AnthonyFry, PeterNormanton, Tom
Berry, Hon AnthonyGardiner, George (Reigate)Page, Rt Hon R. Graham (Crosby)
Best, KeithGarel-Jones, TristanPatten, Christopher (Bath)
Bevan, David GilroyGoodlad, AlastairPatten, John (Oxford)
Blackburn, JohnGow, IanProctor, K. Harvey
Blaker, PeterGrant, Anthony (Harrow C)Renton, Tim
Boscawen, Hon RobertGray, HamishShepherd, Richard (Aldridge-Br'hills)
Boyson, Dr RhodesHawksley, WarrenShersby, Michael
Braine, Sir BernardHooson, TomSmith, Dudley (War, and Leam'ton)
Bright, GrahamJopling, Rt Hon MichaelSpeller, Tony
Brittan, LeonKershaw, AnthonySpicer, Michael (S Worcestershire)
Brown, Michael (Brigg & Sc'thorpe)Knight, Mrs JillStradling Thomas, J.
Bryan, Sir PaulLangford-Holt, Sir JohnTemple-Morris, Peter
Budgen, NickLe Marchant, SpencerThomas, Rt Hon Peter (Hendon S)
Bulmer, EsmondLennox-Boyd, Hon MarkThompson, Donald
Butcher, JohnLloyd, Peter (Fareham)Thorne, Neil (Ilford South)
Cadbury, JocelynLyell, NicholasTownsend, Cyril D. (Bexleyheath)
Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln)McCrindle, Robertvan Straubenzee, W. R.
Carlisle, Rt Hon Mark (Runcorn)McCusker, H.Waddington, David
Channon, PaulMacGregor, JohnWakeham, John
Chapman, SydneyMackay, John (Argyll)Waldegrave, Hon William
Clark, William (Croydon South)Mates, MichaelWard, John
Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)Mather, CarolWatson, John
Clegg, WalterMayhew, PatrickWheeler, John
Colvin, MichaelMeyer, Sir AnthonyWinterton, Nicholas
Cope, JohnMiller, Hal (Bromsgrove & Redditch)Wolfson, Mark
Dean, Paul (North Somerset)Mills, Iain (Meriden)Young, Sir George (Acton)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord JamesMitchell, David (Basingstoke)
Emery, PeterMolyneaux, JamesTELLERS FOR THE AYES:
Eyre, ReginaldMr. Ivan Lawrence and Mr. J. F. Pawsey
NOES
Archer, Rt Hon PeterFoster, DerekRichardson, Miss Jo
Atkinson, Norman (H'gay, Tott'ham)Freud, ClementRoberts, Allan (Bootle)
Barnett, Guy (Greenwich)Hamilton, W. W. (Central Fife)Roberts, Ernest (Hackney North)
Beith, A. J.Hattersley, Rt Hon RoyRooker, J. W.
Bennett, Andrew (Stockport N)Heffer, Eric S.Ross, Ernest (Dundee West)
Booth, Rt Hon AlbertHolland, Stuart (L'beth, Vauxhall)Ross, Stephen (Isle of Wight)
Boothroyd, Miss BettyHooley, FrankSever, John
Bray, Dr JeremyHowell, Rt Hon Denis (B'ham, Sm H)Short, Mrs Renée
Brown, Hugh D. (Provan)Huckfield, LesSilkin, Rt Hon John (Deptford)
Callaghan, Jim (Middleton & P)Jay, Rt Hon DouglasSilverman, Julius
Campbell-Savours, DaleJones, Alec (Rhondda)Skinner, Dennis
Carmichael, NeilJones, Dan (Burnley)Snape, Peter
Cartwright, JohnKaufman, Rt Hon GeraldSoley, Clive
Cowans, HarryLamond, JamesSpearing, Nigel
Cryer, BobLeadbitter, TedStallard, A. W.
Cunningham, George (Islington S)Leighton, RonaldStraw, Jack
Davidson, ArthurLyons, Edward (Bradford West)Taylor, Mrs Ann (Bolton West)
Davis, Clinton (Hackney Central)McCartney, HughThorne, Stan (Preston South)
Davis, Terry (B'rm'ham, Stechford)McDonald, Dr OonaghTinn, James
Deakins, EricMcKay, Allen (Penistone)Walker, Harold (Doncaster)
Dean, Joseph (Leeds West)Marshall, Jim (Leicester South)Wilson, William (Coventry SE)
Dixon, DonaldMaynard, Miss JoanWinnick, David
Dubs, AlfredMellish, Rt Hon RobertWright, Miss Sheila
Eastham, KenMikardo, Ian
Edwards, Robert (Wolv SE)Morton, GeorgeTELLERS FOR THE NOES
Evans, John (Newton)Penhaligon, DavidMr. Reg Race and Mr. David
Flannery, MartinPowell, Raymond (Ogmore)

Question accordingly agreed to.

Question put accordingly, That the amendment be made:—

The House proceeded to a Division:

Photo of Mrs Jill Knight Mrs Jill Knight , Birmingham, Edgbaston

(seated and covered): On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I am informed that there is undue delay in the clearing of the Aye Lobby.

Photo of Mr George Thomas Mr George Thomas , Cardiff West

In view of that, I should like inquiries to be made. If Members are just hanging around in the Lobby, the Teller should bring the result of the Division. Would the Serjeant at Arms be kind enough to inquire?

The House having divided: Ayes 78, Noes 103.

Division No. 33]AYES[10.33 p.m.
Archer, Rt Hon PeterFoster, DerekRoberts, Allan (Bootle)
Atkinson, Norman (H'gay, Tott'ham)Freud, ClementRoberts, Ernest (Hackney North)
Barnett, Guy (Greenwich)Hamilton, W. W. (Central Fife)Rooker, J. W.
Beith, A. J.Hattersley, Rt Hon RoyRoss, Ernest (Dundee West)
Bennett, Andrew (Stockport N)Heffer, Eric S.Ross, Stephen (Isle of Wight)
Bidwell, SydneyHolland, Stuart (L'beth, Vauxhall)Sever, John
Booth, Rt Hon AlbertHooley, FrankShort, Mrs Renée
Boothroyd, Miss BettyHowell, Rt Hon Denis (B'ham, Sm H)Silkin, Rt Hon John (Deptford)
Bray, Dr JeremyHuckfield, LesSilverman, Julius
Brown, Hugh D. (Provan)Jay, Rt Hon DouglasSkinner, Dennis
Callaghan, Jim (Middleton & P)Jones, Alec (Rhondda)Snape, Peter
Campbell-Savours, DaleJones, Dan (Burnley)Soley, Clive
Carmichael, NeilKaufman, Rt Hon GeraldSpearing, Nigel
Cartwright, JohnLomond, JamesStallard, A. W.
Cowans, HarryLeadbitter, TedStoddart, David
Cryer, BobLeighton, RonaldStraw, Jack
Cunningham, George (Islington S)Lyons, Edward (Bradford West)Taylor, Mrs Ann (Bolton West)
Davidson, ArthurMcCartney, HughThorne, Stan (Preston South)
Davis, Clinton (Hackney Central)McDonald, Dr OonaghThin, James
Davis, Terry (B'rm'ham, Stechford)McKay, Allen (Penistone)Walker, Harold (Doncaster)
Deakins, EricMarshall, Jim (Leicester South)Wilson, William (Coventry SE)
Dean, Joseph (Leeds West)Maynard, Miss JoanWinnick, David
Dixon, DonaldMellish, Rt Hon RobertWright, Miss Sheila
Dubs, AlfredMikardo, Ian
Eastham, KenMorton, GeorgeTELLERS FOR THE AYES
Edwards, Robert (Wolv SE)Penhaligon, DavidMiss Jo Richardson and
Evans, John (Newton)Powell, Raymond (Ogmore)Mr. Reg Race.
Flannery, Martin
NOES
Alexander, RichardBest, KeithBright, Graham
Arnold, TomBevan, David GilroyBrittan, Leon
Aspinwall, JackBlackburn, JohnBrown, Michael (Brigg & Sc'thorpe)
Atkins, Rt Hon H. (Spelthorne)Blaker, PeterBryan, Sir Paul
Atkins, Robert (Preston North)Boscawen, Hon RobertBudgen, Nick
Beaumont-Dark, AnthonyBoyson, Dr RhodesBulmer, Esmond
Berry, Hon AnthonyBraine, Sir BernardButcher, John
Cadbury, JocelynJopling, Rt Hon MichaelRenton, Tim
Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln)Kershaw, AnthonyShepherd, Richard (Aldridge-Br'hills)
Carlisle, Rt Hon Mark (Runcorn)Knight, Mrs JillShersby, Michael
Channon, PaulLangford-Holt, Sir JohnSmith, Dudley (War, and Leam'ton)
Chapman, SydneyLe Marchant, SpencerSpeller, Tony
Clark, William (Croydon South)Lennox-Boyd, Hon MarkSpicer, Michael (S Worcestershire)
Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)Lloyd, Peter (Fareham)Steen, Anthony
Clegg, WalterLyell, NicholasStradling Thomas, J.
Colvin, MichaelMcCusker, H.Temple-Morris, Peter
Cope, JohnMacGregor, JohnThomas, Rt Hon Peter (Hendon S)
Cormack, PatrickMackay, John (Argyll)Thompson, Donald
Dean, Paul (North Somerset)Mates, MichaelThorne, Neil (Ilford South)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord JamesMather, CarolTownsend, Cyril D. (Bexleyheath)
Emery, PeterMayhew, Patrickvan Straubenzee, W. R.
Eyre, ReginaldMeyer, Sir AnthonyWaddington, David
Fairgrieve, RussellMiller, Hal (Bromsgrove & Redditch)Wakeham, John
Fenner, Mrs PeggyMills, Iain (Meriden)Waldegrave, Hon William
Fletcher-Cooke, CharlesMitchell, David (Basingstoke)Waller, Gary
Fookes, Miss JanetMolyneaux, JamesWard, John
Fowler, Rt Hon NormanMorrison, Hon Charles (Devizes)Watson, John
Fry, PeterMorrison, Hon Peter (City of Chester)Wheeler, John
Gardiner, George (Reigate)Murphy, ChristopherWinterton, Nicholas
Garel-Jones, TristanMyles, DavidWolfson, Mark
Goodlad, AlastairNeedham, RichardYoung, Sir George (Acton)
Gow, IanNormanton, Tom
Grant, Anthony (Harrow C)Page, Rt Hon R Graham (Crosby)TELLERS FOR THE NOES:
Gray, HamishPatten, Christopher (Bath)Mr. J. F. Pawsey and
Hawksley, WarrenPatten, John (Oxford)Mr. Ivan Lawrence.
Hooson, TomProctor, K. Harvey

Question accordingly negatived.

It being after a quarter to Eleven o'clock, Mr. Speaker adjourned the debate pursuant to the Order of the House this day.

Photo of Mrs Jill Knight Mrs Jill Knight , Birmingham, Edgbaston

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. May I draw to your attention the fact that, had the vote proceeded in a proper and orderly manner, there would have been sufficient time for another vote to have taken place.

Photo of Mr George Thomas Mr George Thomas , Cardiff West

The Division took an unusually long time. Hon. Members will draw their own conclusions. I asked the Serjeant at Arms to ask the Tellers to return, and it took a rather long time.