Orders of the Day — WEST MIDLANDS COUNTY COUNCIL BILL [Lords]

Part of the debate – in the House of Commons at 12:00 am on 28 June 1979.

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Photo of Mrs Jill Knight Mrs Jill Knight , Birmingham, Edgbaston 12:00, 28 June 1979

I am grateful for your guidance, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I shall move on to the amendments tabled by various Opposition Members and deal with them as briefly as I can.

Amenedment (b) seems to be aimed at excluding my new clause from applying to processions of fewer than 200 persons. I am not clear whether the words which are to be inserted after the word "district" refer to those taking part in the procession, or whether they include other persons in the street. It is far from clear. There are more than 100 precedents for the principle of this clause, none of which lays down the number of people that must take part before a new clause can operate. This amendment is nonsense.

Fewer than 200 persons can cause considerable disruption if they are so minded. How on earth would the organisers know, prior to the demonstration, whether there would be 200, 201 or any other number? It is well known that those who organise such demonstrations are often like the sorcerer's apprentice, because the procession or demonstration often gets much bigger and more violent than originally intended. How on earth would the organisers know who would come along? If it is not clear that members of the pubic may well be included in the 200, then it is an extremely odd amendment.

There would also be an open opportunity for some trouble-makers—and some people who organise processions are undoubtedly trouble-makers—to come along. Some unscrupulous persons such as that might say "We did not know all these people would come. We did not know that up to 350 people would actually turn up on the day. We intended that there should be only 199 people present, your honour "The troubles which could arise as a result of the amendment do not require a great deal of imagination.

Amendment (d) seeks to leave out "three days" and insert "thirty-six hours". It is true that some local authorities have different periods of notice. I have taken the trouble to check the times involved. None fails to set down the legal period of notice in respect of Sundays or bank holidays, as the amendment would. In any case, 36 hours is not sufficient time for the police to make arrangements to safeguard the public. After all, three days is a very short time. The police are under stress, as I am sure Labour Members on the Front Bench will understand perhaps even more than Labour Back Benchers.

It is not easy suddenly to call on extra men. Leave has to be cancelled and people have to be brought in from holidays and so on. I do not believe that 36 hours is a sufficient time for the police to be able to protect the public, particularly when no condition is laid down in respect of Sundays and bank holidays.

Amendment (e) would allow a magistrate to change the new clause by himself deciding to substitute a shorter time of notice. Had the hon. Member for Perry Barr and his hon. Friend the Member for Stockport, North (Mr. Bennett) sought advice from the Magistrates' Association on this point, I am sure that they would have had a unanimous protest from the association. I rather fear that they failed to ask for the association's views.

I ask hon. Members to consider the strain that would be imposed on magistrates if they themselves were able to decide whether a certain procession could be absolved from giving the police proper notice. What a terrible responsibility it would be if a magistrate, acting for the best, gave a green light for a procession to go forward, which later caused trouble! As hon. Members know, pressures currently bear down not only on magistrates but also on the courts of this land. I do not believe it is either practicable or fair to place this extra burden on them.

Amendment (e) also gives no opportunity for the district council or police to be notified. It makes no provision for giving effect to such an order, if made. However, one thing which can be said for the amendment is that it is a novel method of varying an Act of Parliament.

It was not my intention to speak at length, but these points are of extreme importance. No doubt we shall hear other arguments later, but I have no doubt that it is right and proper in the interests of the public, chiefly and the police, secondly, that my new clause should be passed.