Part of the debate – in the House of Commons at 12:00 am on 21 March 1979.
Mr Gerry Fitt
, Belfast West
12:00,
21 March 1979
Only a lawyer could advance that argument. Only a lawyer could understand what the hon. Gentleman has said. He said he did not believe that confessions were extracted from people in Northern Ireland by wrongful methods. I understand that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State said in Belfast last night that he was absolutely delighted that the Bennett report had vindicated the Northern Ireland police. I do not know whether my right hon. Friend can read, but that is certainly not my reading of the Bennett report. Nor is it the reading by the press throughout the United Kingdom.
For instance, The Guardian today would seem to suggest that the draconian emergency powers that we are discussing are unnecessary. In an attempt to justify these powers, the attitude, even in Britain, is this:"We accept that it is fair, especially when it is enunciated by someone such as the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland. Whether or not he says it aloud, he means ' Look at the terrible acts the IRA are committing. We are entitled to hold on to powers such as these. Even if they affect many innocent people, at the end of the day we are always assured of getting someone who has been involved in acts of terrorism '."
My idea of the law of the United Kingdom is that the greatest defence and protection must at all times be afforded to people who have not been involved in acts of terrorism or criminal conduct. I accept that there has been a dramatic lowering of standards in Northern Ireland, especially by those involved in the judicial system. The concept of the British judicial system has crashed to the ground in Northern Ireland as a result of this legislation.
One paragraph in the Bennett report refers to the acceptability of the police. It says that in the implementation of Laws such as these the police must at all times act with a fairness that can be readily seen, especially in a community which is divided as that in Northern Ireland. It also says that if the police force oversteps its legal position in an attempt to gain confessions to enable it to bring a person before the courts, that builds up further bitterness and Division within that community.
Today my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary went out of his way to congratulate the police forces involved in the fight against terrorism. With few qualifications, he will know what I am speaking about. I refer to some of the special branch officers, especially at Liverpool, who seem to take great delight in arresting, checking and detaining persons when that would seem to be unnecessary. That happens in a small number of cases. However, as yet I have neither heard nor read that the police force in the United Kingdom beats up suspects because of the Prevention of Terrorism Acts. That charge has never been made. I agree, with slight reservations, with my right hon. Friend. My objections to the existence of this legislation are not supplemented by making an attack on the police in Great Britain.
I realise that I may be placing my right hon. Friend in a difficulty as I see my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland sitting beside him. However, I hope that my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary does not include all the police in the United Kingdom in the congratulations that he expressed. There are cases involving the Northern Ireland special branch in Castlereagh in which truth is no longer necessary. It is understood by people all over the world that those men have overstepped their position and have used ill treatment.
The semantic argument on police interrogation in some of these documents is interesting. We are now trying to draw a distinction. We examined this matter eight or nine years ago. It was discussed in Europe when the Irish Government brought a case against the United Kingdom on the grounds of ill treatment or brutality. Learned legal men argued whether it was maltreatment or ill treatment. It is mentioned again in the Bennett report. The whole world fully understands what are the objections. People in Northern Ireland are arrested and interrogated under the Prevention of Terrorism Acts and the Northern Ireland (Emergency Provisions) Act. They are subjected to ill treatment at the interrogation centre of Castlereagh.
The Speaker is an MP who has been elected to act as Chairman during debates in the House of Commons. He or she is responsible for ensuring that the rules laid down by the House for the carrying out of its business are observed. It is the Speaker who calls MPs to speak, and maintains order in the House. He or she acts as the House's representative in its relations with outside bodies and the other elements of Parliament such as the Lords and the Monarch. The Speaker is also responsible for protecting the interests of minorities in the House. He or she must ensure that the holders of an opinion, however unpopular, are allowed to put across their view without undue obstruction. It is also the Speaker who reprimands, on behalf of the House, an MP brought to the Bar of the House. In the case of disobedience the Speaker can 'name' an MP which results in their suspension from the House for a period. The Speaker must be impartial in all matters. He or she is elected by MPs in the House of Commons but then ceases to be involved in party politics. All sides in the House rely on the Speaker's disinterest. Even after retirement a former Speaker will not take part in political issues. Taking on the office means losing close contact with old colleagues and keeping apart from all groups and interests, even avoiding using the House of Commons dining rooms or bars. The Speaker continues as a Member of Parliament dealing with constituent's letters and problems. By tradition other candidates from the major parties do not contest the Speaker's seat at a General Election. The Speakership dates back to 1377 when Sir Thomas Hungerford was appointed to the role. The title Speaker comes from the fact that the Speaker was the official spokesman of the House of Commons to the Monarch. In the early years of the office, several Speakers suffered violent deaths when they presented unwelcome news to the King. Further information can be obtained from factsheet M2 on the UK Parliament website.
Secretary of State was originally the title given to the two officials who conducted the Royal Correspondence under Elizabeth I. Now it is the title held by some of the more important Government Ministers, for example the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs.
Laws are the rules by which a country is governed. Britain has a long history of law making and the laws of this country can be divided into three types:- 1) Statute Laws are the laws that have been made by Parliament. 2) Case Law is law that has been established from cases tried in the courts - the laws arise from test cases. The result of the test case creates a precedent on which future cases are judged. 3) Common Law is a part of English Law, which has not come from Parliament. It consists of rules of law which have developed from customs or judgements made in courts over hundreds of years. For example until 1861 Parliament had never passed a law saying that murder was an offence. From the earliest times courts had judged that murder was a crime so there was no need to make a law.
The House of Commons votes by dividing. Those voting Aye (yes) to any proposition walk through the division lobby to the right of the Speaker and those voting no through the lobby to the left. In each of the lobbies there are desks occupied by Clerks who tick Members' names off division lists as they pass through. Then at the exit doors the Members are counted by two Members acting as tellers. The Speaker calls for a vote by announcing "Clear the Lobbies". In the House of Lords "Clear the Bar" is called. Division Bells ring throughout the building and the police direct all Strangers to leave the vicinity of the Members’ Lobby. They also walk through the public rooms of the House shouting "division". MPs have eight minutes to get to the Division Lobby before the doors are closed. Members make their way to the Chamber, where Whips are on hand to remind the uncertain which way, if any, their party is voting. Meanwhile the Clerks who will take the names of those voting have taken their place at the high tables with the alphabetical lists of MPs' names on which ticks are made to record the vote. When the tellers are ready the counting process begins - the recording of names by the Clerk and the counting of heads by the tellers. When both lobbies have been counted and the figures entered on a card this is given to the Speaker who reads the figures and announces "So the Ayes [or Noes] have it". In the House of Lords the process is the same except that the Lobbies are called the Contents Lobby and the Not Contents Lobby. Unlike many other legislatures, the House of Commons and the House of Lords have not adopted a mechanical or electronic means of voting. This was considered in 1998 but rejected. Divisions rarely take less than ten minutes and those where most Members are voting usually take about fifteen. Further information can be obtained from factsheet P9 at the UK Parliament site.
