Vietnam

Part of Oral Answers to Questions — Overseas Development – in the House of Commons at 12:00 am on 19 March 1979.

Alert me about debates like this

Photo of Mr Joel Barnett Mr Joel Barnett , Heywood and Royton 12:00, 19 March 1979

I do not dispute that a great many things happened in Nottingham. No doubt my hon. Friend will tell me. No doubt the Expenditure Committee's report was discussed in great detail. I envy hon. Members their pleasure.

I do not dispute that council houses may be sold. After a few years, with larger discounts and a sustained campaign, it would be possible to sell more council houses in some areas. However, not much would be achieved in the first year. [Interruption.] If the hon. Member for Blaby aspires seriously to higher office, he must be a little less sensitive than at present. He must listen occasionally.

It might help Opposition Back Benchers to know how much in the way of public expenditure cuts they may hope for, so that they may include the information in their speeches around the country or in their constituencies and when they say that they will cut income tax, public expenditure and the borrowing requirement by massive amounts. Let me tell the Opposition what would be the result if there were a sustained campaign to sell council houses. If they sold 50,000 more council houses, the long-term savings—certainly not in the first year—would be about £200 million. In the longer period still, with mortgage relief and the possible replacements that would be needed, that might well produce a net loss on the borrowing requirement. However, that ignores the growing need for about 75,000 houses a year to meet the special problems of the elderly, the disabled and the homeless. Presumably even a Conservative Government would not be able to ignore those problems.

I now come to the other expenditure savings, and administrative savings on social security and tax. There have been some increases in the staffs of the Revenue services. The biggest increase was 10,000 in the staff of Customs and Excise. That number rose when the Conservative Government changed from purchase tax to VAT. That was the biggest influence. The Opposition know that any major reduction in staff in that area depends on the simplification of the tax system, which simply cannot be done quickly, especially when they stopped the expenditure on computers, which would have helped us to improve the simplification.

I now come to a subject that is often mentioned by the Opposition—the waste of resources. I note that the Opposition have been quiet about a document that was leaked recently. It is right that the areas covered in that document should be scrutinised very carefully. That is why two of the seven items were not proceeded with. I should be very interested to know whether the Opposition Front Bench would cancel any of the other five. I shall list them.

Would the Opposition cancel the British Aerospace 146—the old HS146? Would they cancel the Rolls-Royce RB 211–535? This is the company that the Opposition rescued from liquidation, having first put it unnecessarily into liquidation. Would they cancel entry into Airbus Industrie? Would they cancel the Sidewinder, or the Milan anti-tank missile, so that we would be utterly dependent on the United States and not produce them here? Which of those would they cancel? I can begin to see why the Opposition have not sought a debate on the subject.

I am bound to say that casting stones in this area of waste of resources is a dangerous business. One thinks of Concorde, the Rolls-Royce rescue, the TSR2 and Blue Streak. Which Government were responsible for more waste than the Conservatives?

Where else would the Opposition make these huge savings? Would they make them in the coal industry, the steel industry, the shipbuilding industry or in the National Health Service? Perhaps we would get from the Opposition some savings in the Health Service. It is possible, for the right hon. Member for Leeds, North-East (Sir K. Joseph), who has some experience in this area, was reported in The Times of 17 April 1978 as saying: Have a health service by all means, maybe one that will have a monopoly of some sorts of care, perhaps the handicapped, the geriatric or mental illness. That is the kind of Health Service envisaged by the right hon. Gentleman. It would have a monopoly of those items and everything else would be divided elsewhere. Is that really the kind of proposition that would enable the Opposition now to argue that they would obtain major cuts in public expenditure? Even if the Opposition planned to provide a National Health Service for the poor, the geriatric, the mentally sick and the disabled, it would take, according to what the right hon. Gentleman is further quoted as saying, up to four consecutive Parliaments ". There would not be much scope there for cutting public expenditure.

All in all, then, the minimum savings that the Opposition would be able to make would be such as would be available only for 1980–81. They would by no means enable major cuts to be made in public expenditure or a major cut in the borrowing requirement—particularly when, offset against even these minimum cuts, there would have to be increases in expenditure on defence, the prison service, law and order and housing for first-time buyers.

One would gather that a substantial increase in public expenditure is to be the policy of the Opposition Front Bench. Tonight they will vote to ensure that there will have to be an increase in public expenditure to allow for the abolition of the earnings rule in relation to pensions. That would involve expenditure up to £100 million over a given short period. This is from the party that claims to be able to cut public expenditure on a substantial scale.

My comments on the Opposition amendment have been extremely moderate, and I have no doubt whatever that the Opposition case really does add up to the fraudulent prospectus that I described. The House has a better prospect before it, as has the country. The House has the Government motion and the plan to increase public expenditure in line with what we can sustain. That plan depends on economic growth, which in turn depends upon containing inflation. Within economic growth, we can achieve what we need by a balance between personal consumption—including income tax cuts—and public consumption.

I do not apologise for wanting to see a society that is governed by a party that cares for something more than public expenditure cuts regardless of the consequences. I do not like the kind of society envisaged by the right hon. Member for Leeds, North-East, in which the poor, the geriatric, the mentally ill and the disabled would be the main people to be served by the Health Service. We need more, not less, public expenditure on health, education, social services, housing and the environment. The Government motion and Government policies provide the opportunity for those better balanced policies in a caring society, and I commend them to the House.