House of Commons (Redistribution of Seats) Bill

Part of the debate – in the House of Commons at 12:00 am on 28 November 1978.

Alert me about debates like this

Photo of Mr Paul Rose Mr Paul Rose , Manchester, Blackley 12:00, 28 November 1978

Those two counties were brought in because the four counties were not viable as an entity. Was that a fair Boundary Commission? Michael Collins would have turned in his grave had he known what would happen after having signed the treaty. The men of moderation such as Michael Collins, who signed that treaty, actually believed that we in Britain would keep our word. We failed to keep our word in that regard.

Were the Boundary Commissions fair when they drew those amazing boundaries in Derry and in other parts of Northern Ireland, such as Fermanagh? It was admitted later that the boundaries were gerrymandered. Does anyone in the minority community have a right to believe that a Boundary Commission will be fair? The very fact that today in this House there are 10 Unionists and two Members on the other side, rather than a ratio of two to one, would indicate something of the same nature. I for one do not blame those hon. Members, such as my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, West, who have serious reservations about this matter.

What we really did was to create an artificial entity in which we could perpetuate the rule of a built-in majority over a minority. Not only did we do that, but in those areas where the minority were the majority we also drew the boundaries in order to see that they did not hold sway at local government level. I am particularly concerned about the remarks which were made about local government. I hope that at the end my right hon. Friend the Minister of State will tell the House whether there is any truth in the rumour that we shall now establish some sort of local government structure which will once again resurrect all the miseries and antagonisms which were caused by the kind of situation which existed before the"Derrymander"and all the rest which was exposed by some of us in this House. That was denied by the Unionists at the time, but ultimately, when they were forced into the open it was admitted to be wrong and they admitted that the boundaries had to be changed.

I am very much in favour of devolution. I see Europe more in terms of regions than of nations. On this I am perhaps a heretic to many hon. Members who share my views over Ireland and other matters. But I rather see a future in Europe where regions become more important than perhaps even the national entity. That may be one of the ways in which the long-standing Irish problem will be solved—within the context of a Europe which is no longer so concerned about national boundaries. It is significant that when more devolution is being granted to Scotland and Wales, and when even the Basques are getting it in Spain, we should at this period be advancing integration in Northern Ireland.

This is not a matter of equity. Those who say that really must say it with their tongues in their cheeks. This is a matter of whether one is looking towards the greater integration of that part of the island of Ireland which is known as Northern Ireland into the United Kingdom or whether one is looking towards some sort of devolution.

Indeed, in the past, although not in the recent past, I have been deeply involved in matters pertaining to Northern Ireland. I have stepped back over the past few years because the men of violence have taken over. Whether they wear IRA berets, or whether they belong to one of the militant Protestant organisations, to me they are equally abhorrent because one does not play with the lives of children and innocent people in that way. I have always condemned that violence. In a sense, I believe that the greatest enemy of democratic change in Northern Ireland was the IRA, and that had it not been for the IRA those of us who were in favour of change in Ireland would have won through by now.

Therefore, once the concept of power sharing was destroyed by the hon. Member for Antrim, North (Rev. Ian Paisley) who gave us such a dire warning before, whose role in this is not an entirely honourable one—I put it no higher than that—and who has hardly helped to bring the two communities together, I came to the conclusion that in the long term it will not be what we say in this House that will decide what happens in Ulster. I believe that Ulstermen will decide what happens in Ulster. I have come to a new conclusion. I have stepped back from the arena after a longer period in it and have come to the conclusion that Ulstermen, whether Protestants, Catholics or agnostics, have a common interest, and curiously enough, a common personality, whether their traditions be from the Scottish plantations or from the Gaelic traditions of Ireland.

In a sense, Ulster is an entity of its own. The problems of Ulster will be solved, because more and more people in Ulster, tired of the violence and of what it is doing, will come together to solve their own problems. Therefore, it will not help if we send more representatives to a talking shop at Westminster where debates on Ireland are attended by the vast serried ranks of hon. Members whom we see here today. That is an indication of the interest which people in this country take in Northern Ireland.

Recognising that, all that introduction of more Members from Northern Ireland will do is not to improve the position of Northern Ireland or aid its people, but merely to allow those people, whoever they are and for whatever party they are elected, to influence events in the United Kingdom itself, to vote on matters which do not even touch on Northern Ireland, and to use such power as they may have —as, indeed, we see today in particularly tight situations—in dispensing their favours.

I believe that devolution, power sharing and confidence in their own institutions is what the people of Ulster now need, whether their allegiances historically have been to the Republic of Ireland or to the United Kingdom.

The Unionists have played the Orange card once again—all seven Orange cards this time—in order to support a minority Government. I regard that kind of expediency, and the acceptance of that bribe, as a debasement of politics and something dishonourable on the part of the Labour Party. I am not afraid to say so from the Back Benches of this House.

As I said, not long ago we could not raise the question of Northern Ireland. There were Ministers, who still sit in their ministerial positions today, who were able to countenance that. Yet those same people are today asking us to have more Members from Northern Ireland. That is the kind of hypocrisy that I have seen during my 14 years in this House. When I put forward the idea of an Ombudsman for Northern Ireland I was told"That is not a practical proposal, young fellow"but it was introduced by the previous Prime Minister only three years afterwards. That is the kind of hypocrisy and expediency that I have come to despise.

What we need are new initiatives, not the cosmetic changes of four, five or six Members more. That is a diversion, because this Government have not taken a single political initiative in relation to Northern Ireland, other than to use methods which only the most insensitive person with regard to the whole history of Ireland would take. The use of special powers and emergency provisions have not helped in the Northern Ireland situation. They have exacerbated the situation. Hon. Members need not take that from me. They should take it from the peace people who came to see us only two weeks ago. They were people without an axe to grind on behalf of extremism. They were trying to bring the communities together. They would say that the actions we have taken to deal with terrorism have exacerbated the situation.

I believe that this very Bill will exacerbate hostility, provoke antagonism and cause a greater distrust of our Government. Above all, how can the minority community, and the party which represents it and many of the majority as well, ever trust us again? How can we, who on so many occasions called upon the help of some of our friends from Northern Ireland when we were in a tight spot, ever turn round and look them in the face again having betrayed them tonight?

I believe that this Bill is a complete about turn. We have had the quotations from the Home Secretary. It is an unnecessary and offensive Bill. It is a completely irrelevant Bill in the context of the problems which Northern Ireland faces today. If one wants to be a complete constitutionalist in terms of fairness, but without the slightest understanding of Ireland and Irish history, then, of course, it is logical. But that kind of logic is the lack of logic which stems from a lack of knowledge of the background of the situation. No one in my party with a shred of honour and integrity and the knowledge of the history of that unfortunate part of Ireland should be prepared to accept this shabby compromise, this shabby deal made with the Opposition for the sake of a few votes.