Agency Arrangements and Provision of Services

Part of Orders of the Day — Scotland Bill – in the House of Commons at 12:00 am on 6 December 1977.

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Photo of Mr Teddy Taylor Mr Teddy Taylor , Glasgow Cathcart 12:00, 6 December 1977

This is one of the clauses to which we have tabled no amendments because we are not sure precisely what the clause is designed to do. I hope that that is not because of our lack of understanding, since we have shown that we have probably an even greater grasp of the details and the dangers of the Bill than the Government. I am sure that the Minister of State will accept that. What we would like to do is to ask one or two questions about why the clause is necessary.

Subsection (1) provides: Arrangements may be made between a Scottish Secretary and any relevant authority"— and "relevant authority" is defined in subsection (3)— for any functions of one of them to be discharged by, or by officers of, the other, and for the provision by one of them for the other of administrative, professional or technical services. My first question is whether we are correct in saying that this is a two-way process. Could a Scottish Secretary or his Department do a job for a relevant authority and could that relevant authority do a job for a Scottish Secretary? Can the Minister confirm that that is so?

Second, can the Minister say under what circumstances he envisages these things being done? There are some public bodies, such as the Scottish Special Housing Association, which the Government ask to do a job for them. Is it this kind of thing which is envisaged, or is it to cover some of the relevant functions of the organisation itself?

Thirdly, we should like to know why this provision is restricted to what are called relevant authorities. There will, I am sure, be many occasions on which the Assembly will want an outside body which is not a relevant authority to do a job for it. There will, presumably, be a great many studies carried out. One thing we always find with new bodies is that they want to do a great deal of fact-finding. I see the hon. Member for Glasgow, Garscadden (Mr. Small) present. He can confirm what I say because he is one of those hon. Members who carries out parliamentary fact-finding on behalf of his colleagues, returning to give us a great deal of helpful information. Many hon. Members engage in fact-finding exercises which can be helpful.

The Scottish Assembly will want to consider many things. It may wish to appoint Select Committees to investigate certain subjects such as land use in various parts of the world. It is more than likely that there will be a great deal of fact-finding. It may be necessary to employ consultants and to obtain advice from other places.

Will the Minister say why the clause is limited to relevant authorities? Will it be possible for the Assembly to go ahead and make arrangements with bodies other than relevant authorities within the terms of the Bill? Why is it necessary for the Government to insert a specific clause saying that the Scottish Assembly can ask a local government body, a public corporation or a public authority to do a job for it? I should have thought that this was already within the scope of the Bill. If the clause did not exist, would it not be possible for the Assembly to ask relevant authorities to do a job for it?

Another matter of interest is whether the clause would be a vehicle enabling the work of United Kingdom Departments to be carried out by the Scottish Assembly. Concern has been expressed about the possibility that this Bill will not be a logical stopping point. The Minister of State has said, and most hon. Members accept, that it is unlikely that the Bill will be a stopping point. Some people think that it will lead to separation, others that it will lead to federalism and others that it will lead to a shambles. Few people believe that it will be a logical stopping point and will form a firm constitutional basis.

It would be interesting to know whether the clause could be used to enable the Assembly to take over the executive rôle of Government Departments—for example, the Department of Health and Social Security.

There is no question of us objecting passionately or strongly to this clause because we are not sure what it does. I hope that the Minister of State can answer my questions.