Scotland Bill (Allocation of Time)

Part of the debate – in the House of Commons at 12:00 am on 16 November 1977.

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Photo of Mr Eric Moonman Mr Eric Moonman , Basildon 12:00, 16 November 1977

There are two or three issues that have emerged in the debate that require some clarification. More than one speaker has suggested that the difficulties that resulted from the Mark I Scotland and Wales Bill were the result of filibustering. I asked my right hon. Friend the Lord President earlier this afternoon whether that was so and he reassured the House that, whatever disagreements we may have had on the Bill, there was no question of filibustering by hon. Members. Those who suggest that filibustering took place must have missed the many occasions when there was a real creative attempt in discussion to work through a complex Bill.

If we are to believe what others have said this afternoon, it seems that this Bill is an improvement. The Leader of the Liberal Party, the right hon. Member for Roxburgh, Selkirk and Peebles (Mr. Steel), said that it is a considerable advance over the previous Bill. I think that the right hon. Gentleman made too many claims for the present Bill, but he did itemise many things that he now sees that were not in the original Bill.

Whether we accept one view or another, it is important that one myth should be dealt with immediately. A great deal of concern was expressed and requests were made for clarification when the previous Bill was considered, but it is my view—apparently it is my right hon. Friend's view—that there was no question of filibustering. The need for the guillotine is based on grounds other than filibustering.

My right hon. Friend did not say precisely what these other grounds are. I join with the right hon. Member for Down, South (Mr. Powell), who made a very fine speech, when he made a personal plea to my right hon. Friend to withdraw this guillotine Motion. My right hon. Friend has a responsibility over and above the work that he is seen to do within the context of his political party. As the Lord President, surely he has the need to care for and nurture the feelings and views of Members from all parts of the House about the way in which Bills are presented and the guillotine used. I suggest to my right hon. Friend that he has not protected the interests of many of us who have the gravest anxiety about the way in which this House is now proceeding.

I respect my right hon. Friend's knowledge of and his competence in Parliament. All that is on record. However, we must judge him as he is now and not necessary by what he said five years, 10 years or 15 years ago. He is the man in the driving seat, and he should have some regard to the anxieties of many Members. He should proceed with a degree of sensitivity.

I am bound to say that my right hon. Friend should take into account that many of us have been caused some distress. Having given him the opportunity to go ahead with the Second Readings on Monday and Tuesday, he should have had the understanding, intelligence and sensitivity to say "I am not prepared to let these bills go to a guillotine." There is no reason why he should not have said that after the successful outcome of Monday and Tuesday nights. He could say it even now.

Surely we have given the Bill a chance to be debated but we do not want the discussion to be put into a straitjacket. Although there have been different interpretations of what a guillotine is likely to achieve, it nevertheless means that we are placed in a tight time limit. It will limit areas of the subject. It will make it impossible to explore some of the complications of the Bill and its many implications for England.

I am reminded of how much we need the discussion, of how much we need the time, by what happened yesterday. I mean no disrespect to the Chair when I say that it was a classic example of the fact that the English connection in this subject of devolution has been lost. I understand that many of my colleagues from Wales wanted to speak yesterday, and I am impressed by the fact that the House heard the representatives of Montgomery, Newport, Pontypool, Merioneth, Barry, Aberdare, Pembroke, Swansea, East, Carmarthen, Bedwellty and Wrexham. We are glad that they were heard. Indeed, the House was addressed by many more Welsh Members, but I cannot pronounce the name of some of the other constituencies.

There is an English interest in the subject. When will the English association be brought in? Although the Scottish National Party Members were inclined to mock before the time previously taken in the earlier Bill, we did need that precious time because the English people, through their parliamentary representatives, had to explore the subject in some detail. I am not prepared to accept the SNP's interpretation of the needs of devolution in Scotland. We in England must discuss devolution with our colleagues in the House. It is very important to remember the English connection when we allocate time for the debate. It should not have the limits that a guillotine motion imposes.

I am not impressed by the argument that perhaps all future legislation should be timetabled. I should be more impressed by those who advance that argument if they were prepared to say that every piece of legislation should be so treated now and did not concentrate on the Scotland and Wales Bills, which have considerable constitutional implications.

In the past I have supported the use of the guillotine as a legitimate device when there are serious political implications and the two sides of the House have an understandable confrontation. This is not such a case. It differs from previous Bills that have been subject to such action, first, because a major constituional change is proposed. Secondly, although it is a Government Bill, neither the Government nor the Opposition are united in their support for it or in their opposition. Many of those who have listened carefully to the arguments and have gone into the Government Lobby have nevertheless had the gravest reservations about the value of the Bill. The uncertainty extends to the English, who, despite all that has been said, have not really been consulted.

One of my hon. Friends said that devolution was a major commitment by the Labour Party and had been adequately dealt with by the 1976 annual conference. I attended that conference. The debate lasted for 52 minutes, and my right hon. Friend took about 24 of them. Surely that is not what is meant by serious consideration within a major party.

The case for the guillotine has not been made out. Let us not confuse the issue. Those who are anxious to share in decision-making in Scotland do not necessarily want this form of devolution. There is a natural desire throughout the United Kingdom to have a bigger say in how decisions are made, not only in local government but in industry. It is a mood that we in Parliament all understand. Those who are opposed to the Bill are not necessarily opposed to the grand concept of sharing in decision-making.

There are certainly more urgent matters for which the House should give time, but not at the expense of a full and free discussion of the serious constitutional issues involved in the devolution Bills. I again appeal to my right hon. Friend that even at this late stage it would be sensible for him to recognise that there is no point in having the sort of debates that we have had this week if he fails to take into account the fears and anxieties expressed about this Bill. The case put by those who support my right hon. Friend should worry him.