Crime (Prevention)

Part of the debate – in the House of Commons at 12:00 am on 12 July 1977.

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Photo of Mr Teddy Taylor Mr Teddy Taylor , Glasgow Cathcart 12:00, 12 July 1977

I certainly agree that discipline is a very important factor, but if we are talking about social change and family upheaval, I think that the hon. Gentleman—who is rather older than I am and is getting older all the time—will accept that those who came home from the war had to cope with many problems of readjustment.

The hon. Member for Galloway (Mr. Thompson) talked about changes in the home, and my hon. Friend the Member for Chislehurst talked about standards. The hon. Member for Kingswood (Mr. Walker), in an excellent speech, talked about the importance of the man on the beat and referred to the Panda car as a disaster. Other hon. Members pointed out, quite rightly, that in the old days, when there was a man on the beat and there were no Panda cars, people did not complain about police cover. But, although the Panda car has major problems of direct contact with the public, there are few who would deny that in a city area, where there is a serious crime problem and a manpower shortage, the police can get to a crime very quickly indeed with the aid of the Panda car.

Some people lay the blame for increased crime on unemployment. Certainly the grim prospect of longer dole queues than at any time since the 1930s must have an effect—and a serious one—on the morale of young people. But there was no significant sign of a change in the pattern in the days of the Conservative Government, when things were much brighter. In fact, at the time there were many who put the blame for increased crime on the problems of affluence and over-full employment. I am sure that those who were here at the time will remember that it was said that the reason for the increase in crime was that we had too much affluence and over-full employment.

Poor education and poor housing have also been blamed. Certainly, my hon. Friend the Member for Walsall, North was quite right in talking about the problems of inner city planning. There are very severe problems in both areas. But, as we now have a surplus and not a shortage of teachers, and as vast sums have been spent on housing, particularly in the city areas, it is rather difficult to accept these as reasons for an upsurge in crime such as we are having at present.

Even if acceptable solutions in those directions could be found, it is certainly not much comfort for the increasing proportion of the population who find that their lives are being disrupted, as my hon Friend the Member for Stechford said, by the activity of the vandal and the thug. I doubt whether the public will have reason to be satisfied with Governments who claim to have the ability to solve complex monetary problems and to work out prices and incomes policies and all the rest of it, when they are singularly unable to solve the problem of crime and violence on the streets of our towns and cities

What needs to be done? A number of proposals have been put forward. Some people have asked for more policemen on the beat. Others have said that we have to change society. I believe that the first action to be taken by the Government must be to have a searching and honest reappraisal of the major changes in law and practice in the mid-1960s, which, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Crosby said, included the abolition of capital punishment, the establishment of children's panels in Scotland, the extension of parole and the reduction in the priority given to a fully-manned police force of high morale.

There are many who say that the division between the so-called tough policies and the so-called soft policies is meaningless, and they are probably right. Most people have adopted very entrenched positions on the more emotive deterrents. But when crime is soaring there is a need for such a reappraisal.

The hon. Member for Kingswood and my hon. Friend the Member for Stechford said that there is a need for rethinking when things are getting so bad. I believe that the division is a real one. We can see it in the attitude of hon. Members who have spoken of the congestion in prisons and in the courts. Some have argued that the right step is not to send to prison people who do not pay fines, and not to send to prison people who cause breaches of the peace, although the alternative has not been made very clear. It is all very well to argue that people should not be sent to prison for breaches of the peace, but it is important to put forward alternatives.

There are others who argue that if sentences were such as to strike fear into the hearts of potential offenders there might be fewer people going to prison in the longer term. Likewise our Scottish Lord Advocate, who I am glad to see present, faced with a situation in which the courts of Glasgow are grossly overcrowded, is considering what he calls "alternatives to prosecution".

There are others who might argue that a more vigorous prosecution allied to stronger penalties might reduce the burdens on the courts. If we carry on as at present, I believe that a change will have to come one way or the other. I think that most hon. Members have accepted this.

The courts will be in danger of breaking down unless the volume of cases is reduced or unless another solution can be found. Likewise the prisons, as has been said, are facing a crisis. On 25th July 1975 Mr. Roy Jenkins, who has since left us, stated that if the prison population should rise to, say 42,000, conditions in the system would approach the intolerable and drastic action would have to be taken. In October 1976 the prison total reached 42,006, and there is no sign of such drastic action. I do not think that it can be delayed for long. Either we shall simply have to stop prosecuting people or stop sending them to prison or we shall have to change course in some other direction.

It is no secret that I personally share the view of my right hon. Friend the Member for Crosby. I believe that we should adopt the course of reintroducing deterrents like capital and corporal punishment and that the penalties for crimes of violence should be increased. This, of course, is a personal view and not a party view, but I think that there are few members of my party, or few hon. Members in the House, who would argue that there will not have to be some major change of direction one way or the other before long. We certainly cannot carry on as we are doing at present.