Orders of the Day — Prisons

Part of the debate – in the House of Commons at 12:00 am on 20 December 1976.

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Photo of Mr Brynmor John Mr Brynmor John , Pontypridd 12:00, 20 December 1976

It is consolidation for staying up through the night if I can contribute to that debate. Although the overwhelming preponderance of improvement to existing institutions is confined to security and general basic amenities, clearly in any humane règime we have to spend a proportion on education and vocational and physical training. These are carefully weighted on a national system of priorities, and they constitute in total between 1 and 2 per cent. of the building programme. We believe that at Camp Hill, with its high preponderance of young prisoners in what is a training establishment, they will benefit very greatly from the provision of those facilities.

I think that the hon. Member was unduly gloomy when he said that the matter was rejected. He will know that the Home Secretary is reconsidering the matter after the initial indication of refusal. I cannot minimise the difficulties which we see in this matter but I assure him that we shall give the most careful consideration to the point he makes about the public sharing in the facilities. In particular, he has mentioned the high number of his constituents who are employed in the prison service. They would be part of that.

The hon. Member mentioned the IRA causing problems and claiming political status. The people who are in prison are in prison because they have been convicted of criminal offences. It is no part of the British Government's policy to imprison upon political grounds. This is imprisonment for criminal offences. Certainly while that happens we can have no dual standards. The people concerned were properly convicted under due process of law and are, therefore, prisoners as are any other prisoners. I can understand the hon. Gentleman's point about the friction which it has caused, but thought it right to emphasise that.

The debate has been interesting and, I believe, valuable. I hope that those who have heard it—hon. Members have not flocked in in large numbers to hear it—will at least read the report of the debate in Hansard, and that this will spark off interest.

We are, as the hon. Member will know very willing to answer questions on the subject. Time for debate is rather more difficult. There is no wish on the part of the Home Office to stifle debate on what is, after all, a public matter of the highest importance.

I am tempted to quote Shakespeare and say that our revels now are ended". I am grateful to the hon. Member for having raised this important problem and for the opportunity I have had of putting on the record certain views held by my Department.