Part of the debate – in the House of Commons at 12:00 am on 20 December 1976.
There were three strands in the contribution made by the hon. Member for the Isle of Wight (Mr. Ross), but I know that he will forgive me if I turn first to the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull, East (Mr. Prescott) about the report. I assure him that I shall pass on to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State what my hon. Friend said about publication. I am sure that my right hon. Friend will consider it most carefully. My hon. Friend put very eloquently the point in favour of the publication of the policy report, and I shall see that my right hon. Friend has that information and considers it.
Secondly—this is a general point concerning both hon. Members who have spoken—there is the lament: how little opportunity there is for the House of Commons to debate the subject of prisons. When I see some hon. Members sticking rigidly to the concept of the House of Commons as it was and refusing to consider ways of lightening the load upon the House I reflect that it is a very salutary lesson to have debates like this one, when we see how many subjects we leave from month to month and year to year without adequate debate. The subject of prison policy is an extremely interesting one, which is left untapped and undebated for far too long.
I take issue with both the hon. Member for the Isle of Wight and my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull, East for the way in which they expressed themselves. This is not merely a debate about prison policy, because, in isolation, prison policy is but a reflection of our larger penal policy, on sentencing and deterrents generally.
As a country we are in a profound dilemma. We are torn between those who want us to look at alternatives to prison and those who say that we should deal with prisoners in a tougher way. Many people urge us to be more severe, but the public good dictates that a much cooler and closer look at the subject is necessary.
I can assure both hon. Members that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has taken a close interest in this subject and is examining all possible ways of alleviating the problem of the high prison population. He will do whatever is necessary and whatever is possible to cope with what is admittedly a great problem.
The three strands of the problem are staff, security, and recreational facilities at Camp Hill. This debate, although it has touched on general policy, is about expenditure. Prisons make highly intensive use of manpower, and prison officers' pay accounts for 60 per cent. of all prison expenditure, or, if we take net current expenditure, it accounts for about 75 per cent. This compares with capital expenditure of about 25 per cent. and operating costs of 15 per cent. of all expenditure.
Whatever the public expenditure position, no cuts in staff are envisaged. The White Paper on public expenditure shows that by the end of the decade the present staff is scheduled to increase by about 3,000. The ratio of staff to prisoners will not worsen in any way, staff salaries will increase, and the number of staff quarters will be increased.
The hon. Gentleman mentioned a shortfall in the establishment. At 30th November there was a shortfall against the establishment for 31st March 1977 of 324, but by 31st March that is expected to be made good, so that there will be no overall shortfall.
Secondly, the hon. Gentleman mentioned civilian staffs. As far as can be foreseen, no cuts in civilian staff will be necessary. He mentioned a sum that has been expressed as a cut in the Supplementary Estimates. One of these is a diminution in the amount of overtime working.
I take the point made by both hon. Gentlemen that this leads inevitably to some restriction of facilities and lack of provision which, in the long run, is undesirable. I can only say that in a very difficult situation we are trying to do all that we can to make the situation tolerable. The diminution of overtime has meant greater staff availability. The existing staff is not stretched as tightly as it was. That is one helpful point.
The second point the hon. Gentleman raised was the question of security. This is not affected by the cuts. Half the £6·6 million allocated for improvements to existing establishments is for security measures and essential services. In the next three years the proportion will increase.
The hon. Gentleman wondered about the status of Parkhurst. The sum of £1·2million is being spent there on perimeter security and greater security of the special security block. At Albany, a Category B dispersal prison, £1·6 million is being spent on security, making the outside perimeter wall concrete, providing anti-climbing devices, strengthening cell walls and installing closed-circuit television. At that prison there is a system whereby the cell doors and doors between buildings are locked electrically. I understand that a scheme to improve that system, at a cost of £180,000, is starting.