Devolution (Scotland and Wales)

Part of the debate – in the House of Commons at 12:00 am on 19 January 1976.

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Photo of Mr William Whitelaw Mr William Whitelaw , Penrith and The Border 12:00, 19 January 1976

No, I am saying no such thing. I am saying that we believe that we cannot allow ourselves to be pushed along on a slippery slope by the tactics of the Scottish and Welsh nationalists. Once we have sensible plans that meet the needs and aspirations of the Scottish people—which I believe can be achieved—we shall be able to rally behind those plans a considerable body of opinion in Scotland—I believe a large majority—that does not want complete independence. That must be our tactic and the course that the House should set itself.

The preservation of the United Kingdom provides the only positive ground of agreement, but there is another area of considerable agreement of a negative kind—against any form of Welsh Assembly. My hon. Friend the Member for Pembroke (Mr. Edwards), in a powerful speech, made the case admirably. Nor can the Government ignore the strong and powerful speeches against a Welsh Assembly from their own Benches—from the hon. Members for Bedwellty (Mr. Kinnock), Pontypool (Mr. Abse) and Swansea, East (Mr. Anderson). Faced with that strong opposition, I was not convinced by the Secretary of State for Wales. In truth, I was not sure, despite his undoubted eloquence, that the right hon. and learned Gentleman had altogether convinced himself.

Therefore, I hope that on second thoughts the Government will drop this idea of a non-legislative Welsh Assembly. If they do not, I trust that they will at least introduce a separate Welsh Bill, as I suggested to the Lord President of the Council. I am grateful to have the support of the Liberal Party in this, which came during the speech of the hon. Member for Roxburgh, Selkirk and Peebles (Mr. Steel).

The feeling in Wales is clearly very different from that in Scotland. The problem is very different. Equally, the details of the proposals set out in the White Paper are very different. If the Lord President of the Council decides against this view, let him set out his reasons. I cannot see any arguments in favour of one Bill, except that of Government convenience and, hopefully, of Government time.

If I may say so to him, I had an experience of receiving similar advice. I took it and, frankly, I rather wish I had not. If it is to be thrown back at me that I once had such a Bill—and I have no doubt that those who take care of these things will soon be doing that—I shall get that argument out of the way quickly, because I think that I was wrong on that occasion.

I do not believe that the right hon. Gentleman would find that he would save the Government time in this way, although he might be advised that he would. I think that he would find that these hopes of Government convenience and of Government time being saved would become somewhat illusory. I think that his right hon. Friend the Government Chief Whip would find the same as the days of the Committee stage turned into weeks.

On the Government proposals for Scotland—or, indeed, any proposals for Scottish devolution—there is no such clear agreement. Unlike Wales, there is undoubtedly a strong body of opinion in Scotland pressing for change. As a Conservative, I believe that the State and the Government exist to serve the individual and that institutions should develop gradually to meet changing needs and the demands of the individuals they serve.

In this connection it needs to be stressed that there has been steadily increasing administrative devolution to Scotland since the first Secretary of State was appointed in 1885. As my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Huntingdonshire (Sir D. Renton), with his experience on the Kilbrandon Commission, made clear, that was the view the Commission took.

I remember that when I stood for a Scottish constituency in 1950 and 1951 there was pressure from the Scottish nationalists. Shortly after that, my right hon. and noble Friend Lord Home was appointed under that remarkably astute figure, the later Lord Stuart, then Secretary of State. Their appointments met the needs of their time, as was recognised—