Orders of the Day — Devolution (Scotland and Wales)

Part of the debate – in the House of Commons at 12:00 am on 15 January 1976.

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Photo of Dr Maurice Miller Dr Maurice Miller , East Kilbride 12:00, 15 January 1976

One merely has to look around the world. I include Israel because there are problems there, too. One just has to look around the world to see the kind of situations that are produced by nationalism. That also refers to the place the hon. Gentleman mentioned. Even the friendly Dutch people, no doubt provoked by terrorism, turned on innocent South Moluccan children because they were an easily identifiable group. Nationalism whips up xenophobia. Nationalism, as my hon. Friend the Member for Walton has so eloquently pointed out, brings out in people a nastiness that is then developed into a fervour by some individuals. I am not saying that the Scottish National Party is deliberately doing this, but I am saying that these are its dangers and it is what nationalism can give rise to.

My hon. Friend the Member for Walton spoke about discrimination against minorities, which worries us so much about nationalism. I concede immediately that for some nations this is the only way to achieve self-expression, to obtain civil rights and proper representation. But are the Scottish people oppressed? Are their rights denied them? Are they not adequately represented in Parliament? Are they being exploited by the wicked English? The SNP will say "Yes", but no sensible person would imagine for one moment that that is the position of the Scottish people. Their grumbles and complaints and accusations are all fostered by a group of dedicated, calculating and often unscrupulous people.

Yesterday my hon. Friend the Member for Dagenham (Mr. Parker), in an interesting speech, was right to point out that the problems of Scotland cannot be blamed on England. They cannot be put at the doorstep of the "wicked" English, because the Scots mine owner, shipbuilder, colliery owner and iron works owner were responsible both for the production of enormous wealth for themselves and then for leaving a mess after the bonanza of the late 18th and 19th centuries—a mess that Labour Governments, in particular, have had to try to tackle and clear up in the last 30 or 40 years. Even taking all this into account, most of the complains are imaginary, because the average weekly wage in Scotland today is higher than that in England, the average per capita expenditure is higher than that in England, and even the growth rate in Scotland for the past 10 years has been consistently higher than that in England. These facts are set out quite clearly in the papers that are available for all to read.

However, this whole discussion is not based on logic or reason. It is based on emotion, and every rational argument that is put forward is stood on its head. Today, I heard a speech about the constitutional position in relation to the Queen and the Commonwealth. There was a quite frank admission that the nationalists would be happy to go back to the position that obtained in 1603. I refer to part of a speech that was made by the senior vice-president of the Scottish National Party. Is there anything more nebulous than this: Scotland is seeking effective government and national fulfilment. There is also the desire to preserve the spirit of unity in the UK. These objectives are not mutually exclusive, but if we are denied the right to exercise fundamental governmental powers, the Scots will be forced to choose. It is completely meaningless. It is not what the argument is about. Together with many of my hon. Friends, I deprecate the wasting of valuable time and effort in trying to penetrate smoke screens and follow red herrings.

The argument and the whole discussion and debate that are taking place today are about people, jobs, food, homes, and how best we can achieve our objectives. Sooner or later public representatives—I point the finger at the members of the Scottish National Party—must declare themselves openly and honestly and not in the way that they do here—11 people with 11 entirely different view-points and policies.

When I read, in the Scottish Press, the highly critical reports on the White Paper, I also felt disappointed and let down. The Scotsman had the headlines: Too Timid and Too Grudging. and: Main Reactions: Anxiety and Disappointment. The Glasgow Herald had the headlines: The Power of Big Brother and No Control of Oil. Those comments appeared in the newspapers before we received a copy of the White Paper. However, a study of the White Paper shows that those reports were biased and slanted, and their objections to the White Paper were highly selective and their fears exaggerated.

Little mention was made of the positive proposals in the White Paper. In particular, I want to mention the proposed committee system. I take exception to the remarks made by the hon. and learned Member for Montgomery (Mr. Hooson). I fully approve of this system. In a speech on devolution last year I advocated the committee system, because it is more democratic and gives Back Benchers of all parties more say in the interplay of what goes on in committees. I commend the Government for an enlightened proposal of this kind.

The list of devolved subjects is very impressive. Adding to that the fact that 60 per cent. of the total identifiable expenditure in Scotland will be transferred to the Assembly, I think that we have an Assembly with real power. I admit that one has to safeguard the unity of the United Kingdom, and if it is necessary to err on the safe side in order to safeguard it, we must do so. It is right that we should do this. It is what the vast majority of the people of Scotland want. I and the people of Scotland reject separatism, with its selfishness and its crude appeal to base instincts. Reserve powers are also necessary, but the way in which they are invoked and used must be considered with great care.

I ask my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland to consider two strengthening changes to the White Paper. I believe that the Scottish Development Agency must come under the authority of the Assembly. The SDA has a considerable range of industrial and economic power—sufficient, I maintain, to satisfy all reasonable demands in this matter. As has been said, more economic power than this for Scotland would in all probability mean less effective economic power, and less actual power, because the main area in which economic decisions are taken—Westminster—would be denied proper Scottish representation.

The second thing that I ask my right hon. Friend to consider is a reduction in his vetoing powers. I think that he will have too many of these, and perhaps it would be a good thing if he devolved some of them.

One other point must be mentioned. With an Assembly, the danger of over-government is real. Although it is anathema to mention it now, eventually we shall have to face the abolition of the regional set-up. The Scottish National Party would have to believe that every Scot walks about with a chip on his shoulder as large as a granite block. They foster this inferiority complex. But the Scots have always been outward-looking. In order to prove that, I should like to have a referendum of the Scottish people on this subject. That has been advocated in this debate and I strongly support the suggestion.

The White Paper lays the foundation for a meaningful Assembly in Scotland, fully in accord with the Labour Party's manifesto of October 1974.