Devolution (Scotland and Wales)

Part of the debate – in the House of Commons at 12:00 am on 14 January 1976.

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Photo of Mr Gerald Fowler Mr Gerald Fowler , The Wrekin 12:00, 14 January 1976

I should have said that the hon. and learned Gentleman has got it backwards. We have produced the reality without the trappings—the division of sovereignty. However, we can argue about that perhaps at a later date.

At issue in this debate are the sort of simplifying procedures, if any, which should exist for the exercise of that reserve power, which is inherent in retained sovereignty, by something short of the full panoply and the full delay of passing a full-blown Act of Parliament. That is all that is at issue. The Government believe that there should be some such democratic procedure, granted that matter will already have been considered at length by another democratically elected Assembly.

Yesterday's debate revealed some misunderstanding of what is proposed. We should be crystal clear that the Secretary of State will have no power of legislative veto on policy grounds. On those grounds the only thing he could do on behalf of the Government, and without Parliament's specific authority, would be to refer an Assembly Bill back. That power is set out in paragraph 58 of the White Paper. In effect, it is merely a power to fire a shot across the bows—it is a formal warning, following informal warnings given at an earlier stage. What the Assembly then does is entirely at its own discretion. If it is set on its course it can send the Bill back to the Secretary of State, within 24 hours if it likes. If the Government want to persist in their opposition to the Bill they must bring the matter quickly to Parliament. If they cannot persuade Parliament of their views—and they would not necessarily carry all Scottish or Welsh Members in such a situation—the Assembly Bill will go forward for Royal Assent. There is no power at all for the United Kingdom Government alone to over-ride an Assembly Bill on policy grounds. It is this House and another place that would be able to do that.

If I understood the right hon. Lady the Leader of the Opposition correctly yesterday, she believes that the whole matter of the United Kingdom interest should be made one of law rather than of policy. The gist of her argument was that the Bill should be so framed that, in effect, every possible difficulty is allowed for in the drafting and, therefore, dealt with wholly as matters of vires so that no special procedure for reserve powers for over-ride on policy grounds would be needed. Theoretically I concede that that is an attractive course. We examined it carefully when we developed our proposals and we abandoned it with some reluctance. I entirely accept that the legal boundaries of devolution should be as clear as possible and the more the difficulties can be handled as a matter of vires and the less as a matter of policy the better it is for everyone.

No one would be more pleased than the Government if the policy procedure never had to be evoked. To hope for that is one thing, to count on it to the point of having no such procedure is quite another. The reason for not relying wholly on vires is a matter for sheer practicality. The business of Government today is so wide and complex and areas interact with each other so extensively that it is simply not realistic to try to foresee and prohibit every conceivable way in which the exercise of devolved powers could touch on the responsibilities remaining with the Government and this House.

After over a year of work on this subject therefore, our judgment is that the job would not be feasible at all. Even if it were feasible, we should face the fact that three consequences would certainly follow. First, we should have a Bill of quite staggering length and complexity. Secondly, and by the same token, we could not possibly have it ready in anything like the timetable we envisage and, thirdly, because the effect would be to remove from the Government any power of discretion, we should have to devolve in a far more guarded and qualified way than we now propose. We should have to allow for every possible contingency and difficulty in advance. In summary, we should have a huge, late and more grudging Bill, which is not desirable. That is the only reason why we have not adopted the right hon. Lady's scheme.