Orders of the Day — European Community (Budget)

Part of the debate – in the House of Commons at 12:00 am on 6 November 1975.

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Photo of Mr Joel Barnett Mr Joel Barnett , Heywood and Royton 12:00, 6 November 1975

I am sorry if I did not elaborate it sufficiently. But I am sure that my hon. Friend is aware that every Minister in this Government, when taking decisions about financial matters, will have the odd word in his ear from the Chief Secretary. When a Minister in another Department discusses policy matters which are to go before the Council of Ministers of Agriculture or before any other Council, the Government and the Chief Secretary are concerned and involved.

Another matter touched on in the debate was the way that national Parliaments and Ministers are involved in these matters. As the system now applies, it is the spending Ministers who are responsible, through the Government, to this House. I think that that is the answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Heeley (Mr. Hooley).

Another matter raised concerned the Social Fund. I could not understand the hon. Member for Scarborough when he asked why we had cut 60 mua off the Social Fund. I pointed out the way that the Council of Ministers works. Although the Commission put in that figure, there was no policy on that issue and, rightly in my view, the Council of Ministers decided to delete it.

My hon. Friend the Member for Heeley asked about the classifications of the Social Fund and the Regional Fund. The Social Fund is classified as non-obligatory, which means that within the maximum rate the Assembly can increase it. The Regional Fund is in a state of limbo. The Council of Ministers says that it should be classified as obligatory, whereas the Assembly is concerned to have it classified as non-obligatory. At the moment it is left in that state.

I turn to the questions raised about the Regional Fund. The political commitment to the size of the fund stands. In the Community budget we are talking about an estimate arising out of that commitment that may or may not be spent.

The hon. Member for Roxburgh, Selkirk and Peebles asked for an assurance that the Government would put the fullest possible impetus behind the Regional Fund. The answer is that they will. We want the maximum number of applications to be made so that we can take the maximum possible advantage of the fund. The hon. Gentleman also managed to raise the matter of devolution. I hope he will forgive me if I do not take up too much time on that question. However, I have noted the point he made that we should examine the possibility of a more speedy use of the Regional Fund by allowing the Scottish Office to become involved. The Scottish Office is involved in the processing of applications, and I shall certainly ensure that this point is brought to its attention.

The hon. Member for Roxburgh, Selkirk and Peebles and the hon. Member for Guildford (Mr. Howell) mentioned the problem of additionality. The hon. Member for Guildford asked whether the Prime Minister's remarks represented Government policy. I am happy to tell him that they did. The hon. Gentleman rightly said that I was concerned that there should be a strict control over public expenditure. He cited the Prime Minister as saying that were it not for the Regional Fund certain other regional expenditures could not be made. That is absolutely correct. Were it not for the Regional Fund there would be other regional expenditure which could not be spent without increasing public expenditure to a degree with which the hon. Member for Guildford and other hon. Members would disagree. I hope that that is reasonably clear. I am sorry if hon. Gentlemen do not like the way the system works and would like to spend more, but that is how it works.