Price Range Notices

Clause 5 – in the House of Commons at 12:00 am on 12th June 1974.

Alert me about debates like this

Photo of Mrs Sally Oppenheim Mrs Sally Oppenheim , Gloucester 12:00 am, 12th June 1974

I beg to move Amendment No. 16, in page 6, line 1, leave out Clause 5.

I am sure that this clause has been included in the Bill with the laudable intention of keeping consumers as well informed as is possible. This is an objective with which we on this side of the House absolutely concur. We are concerned because we think that, in addition to the confusion, already discussed in detail in Committee, which will arise from the display of maximum price notices and lists of statutory or voluntary promotional offers, these price range lists will not be practical or helpful in the form described.

The mind boggles at some of the impracticalities involved. In the first place, how will medium and small-sized shops be able to keep pace with a whole range of prices and scores of items of fresh and processed foods, changing as they do from day to day and week to week? How will they be able to translate these quickly and put them on to wall lists? What will happen if they fall behind and consumers are doubly confused as a result? How are such price range lists to take account of variations in quality?

Photo of Mr Gwilym Roberts Mr Gwilym Roberts , Cannock

Would the hon. Lady not admit that, in view of the inflation which prevailed under the last Government, shopkeepers have had a great deal of experience of changing prices upwards very quickly?

Photo of Mrs Sally Oppenheim Mrs Sally Oppenheim , Gloucester

I am sure that they have learned a great deal more since, because we have had the highest-ever recorded rise in the retail price index under this Government. No doubt their experience has been greatly increased.

The problem for small shopkeepers is even greater. Are they to advertise on notices on their walls that goods which they sell can be obtained more cheaply elsewhere? What will it cost them to put these lists up? I mention this having in mind a small shopkeeper in my consti- tuency who is a pensioner. This ties in with what we were discussing earlier.

We are not alone in our concern about these price range lists. The Grocer of 1st June had a headline Shirley's Poster Plan comes Unstuck". The story said: Grocery distributors were still reeling after a meeting called by the Department of Prices and Consumer Protection, at which they were told of plans to make them post up notices in shop windows giving price ranges …". It was pointed out that about 19 different types of cheese were subsidised and most shops did not sell half of them. There were also enormous variations in the price of butter, depending on the make and brand.

Other problems concerned the cost of publishing all the various posters, showing different prices every week or even more often, and how a voluntary chain, for example, would organise itself to get this ever-changing material to 4,000 retailers simultaneously. Other explanatory points made to the Minister of State included the difference between own-label and branded products, the possibility that traders would be accused of profiteering and the impossibility of organising price ranges for up to 80 grocery items on a regular basis—which would in any case be virtually meaningless to housewives. Of course they would be.

Then there is the question of how this is to be enforced. How many extra staff would have to be taken on in the trading standards offices to enforce these extremely complicated regulations? It is impossible for consumers, shopping under pressure, to consult labyrinthine lists on walls about maximum prices, price ranges, statutory offers authorised by the Government, even if they have extremely determined powers of observation. They would have to shop not only with a heavy shopping basket and, as is so often the case, three noisy children but with a notebook and pencil, a pocket calculator and a pair of long-distance reading glasses.

9.0 p.m.

Photo of Mr William Molloy Mr William Molloy , Ealing North

I am sure the hon. Lady will recall her right hon. Friend the Member for Lowest (Mr. Prior), when he was a Minister advocating—he forgot about the children and the perambulator and the heavy shopping basket—that people should shop around, traipse from shop to shop and so on. Would she not agree that under this clause the small trader will probably be enabled to be more exacting and discriminating about what sort of prices he will take from his wholesaler, which could make a general contribution to counteracting inflation?

Photo of Mrs Sally Oppenheim Mrs Sally Oppenheim , Gloucester

I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will recognise that for several reasons the small trader cannot offer the lowest price in the range and, therefore, in most cases he will be advertising on his wall that the goods can be bought at a lower price elsewhere.

Consumers are infuriated when they buy an article and then see it offered for sale somewhere else for several pence less. There may or may not be a good reason for that. If not, the consumer is right to be furious about it. The consumer always has the choice of being able to shop regularly in the shop which sells at the lowest price. People with night storage heaters must wish that they had that choice.

The price range list will not tell consumers what they want to know. It will tell them that the goods are available at a lower price, but it will not tell them where, and it will not tell them why the shop in which they are shopping is charging a price higher than that which is charged somewhere else. It is not practicable for that information to be displayed on a list. The consumers may be completely misled about the shop, although there may be a perfectly feasible explanation for the dearer prices.

My hon. Friends and I believe that the right place for the provision of this information is either through a telephone price advice bureau, so that consumers can jot down precisely the information they re-require and no other and can be told where prices are cheaper and why prices are dearer, or an authorised advice bureau, where, once again, the information can be presented clearly and simply and, where necessary, isolated. Contrary, possibly, to the good intentions of the Government, the clause will cause confusion to consumers rather than help them.

I have a list of 80 items issued by the Department of Prices and Consumer Protection from which I will pick two or three price ranges. On the item "ham, not shoulder" the price variation is between 70p and 100p. That is an enormous variation, and one can imagine the fury of the consumer at having to pay 100p. There is obviously an explanation for that because it is an allowable variation. There is another item called "broiler, lean, frozen". I thought that "broiler" was an American expression, and I am horrified to see it. That can vary in price between 21p and 29p. Many consumers would think that that was a wide variation, and it would annoy them considerably. There would be no explanation for that.

These lists will serve to confuse consumers, and they are considerably to the disadvantage of consumers, and we, therefore, have a duty to attempt to remove the clause from the Bill.

Photo of Mr Edward Graham Mr Edward Graham , Enfield Edmonton

The hon. Member for Gloucester (Mrs. Oppenheim) says that the shopper will be even more confused by the proposals than she is at present and that the provision of more information on prices is likely to be to the detriment of the shopper. The inference is that because the shopper is told that she can buy more cheaply elsewhere she will automatically go elsewhere and the shopkeeper will be disadvantaged.

I accept that the small shopkeeper may be disadvantaged, but the picture that has been painted is that uniformity of prices is possible at the present time. An interesting exercise was carried out by a Sunday newspaper which investigated blanches of a large chain store in the Greater London area. The following variations in the price of the various stores in the chain were found on the same day. Ten Bill pads bought in one store cost 11p and in another store 17½ p. Harpic was 13p in one shop and in another 14p. Packets of Flash were 19½p and 26½p. Fairy Liquid was 22½p and 26½p. Starch was 12½p and 15p. No wonder shoppers go round the bend when they see variations like that.

The newspaper gave the acceptable explanation that the variations were accounted for by promotional offers and end-of-line goods. The hon. Lady cannot pretend that merely providing information—not manipulating prices or directing the shopper where to go—will cause the confusion she suggests.

Photo of Mr Fred Silvester Mr Fred Silvester , Manchester, Withington

I take it that the hon. Gentleman is referring to the article which appeared in the Observer. Most of the items he quoted were special offers made for a limited period. Is he aware that under the Bill it will still be highly desirable for a manufacturer to promote an item and at the end of the promotional period to return to the original price? What change is the hon. Gentleman suggesting from the existing position?

Photo of Mrs Sally Oppenheim Mrs Sally Oppenheim , Gloucester

I was about to ask the hon. Gentleman in what way these price range notices would simplify the situation. All they would do would be to confirm what the consumers had already observed for themselves. The cases mentioned by the hon. Gentleman are not contravening any particular practice, for the reasons he gave. In other words, what was in the newspaper would be put on the wall, and I do not see how it would help the consumer.

Photo of Mr Edward Graham Mr Edward Graham , Enfield Edmonton

I think the hon. Member for Manchester, Withington (Mr. Silvester) and the hon. Member for Gloucester have really made the same point. They suggest that the present legislative provisions already relate to this kind of practice and that anything further would not do a great deal to alter the situation. I was trying to make the point that, by virtue of practices carried out in the trade, the shopper already faces difficulties when he or she seeks to shop to the best advantage. I am not envisaging a whole number of goods over which there would be a range of prices. First, we shall start with the subsidised commodities, and then we shall move slowly and seek to extend the range.

A great many people are familiar with those shops where they can get goods at the bottom end of the scale and the shops where goods are sold at the top end of the scale. I am suggesting that we should maximise the aids available to the shopper. We believe that in a competitive way traders will respond to the fact that they are now under some obligation to make sure that shoppers are given as much information as possible.

Photo of Mr Charles Loughlin Mr Charles Loughlin , Gloucestershire West

We are making heavy weather over very little. I have been associated with distribution for about 30 years, and it is accepted that people follow a pattern of shopping. Some people will patronise a small shop because of particular advantages, irrespective of the price of the goods in that shop. Some people will go to a particular shop, knowing full well that the prices are dearer there, just because they want to shop with an exclusive clientele. We know that there are bound to be variations in prices which apply shop by shop. However, if we take the Opposition's advice and delete this provision, we should pursue in some detail the suggestion that we should set up all types of bureau where information about prices can be obtained.

Reference has been made to promotional features and to an article in the Sunday Press. It was accepted that promotional activities of this kind would be continued by traders. So we get to the position suggested by the hon. Member for Gloucester (Mrs. Oppenheim).

For the purpose of graphical illustration, let me name a firm. Supposing Tesco decides to do the same as the firms referred to in the newspaper article about which we have heard. Let us suppose that it decides to do it next week and the week after, and it promotes a range of goods at different prices. Let us suppose, further, that I telephone the information bureau and ask as a shopper where I can buy a tin of baked beans and at what price. The person manning the information bureau and responsible for giving me the precise information will tell me that if I go to Tesco I can get a tin of baked beans at the lowest price, which is 6½p. But I shall also be told that I had better be careful because I shall have to go to branch A of Tesco, that if I go to branch B the price will be 7p, and that if I go to branch C it will be 10p.

The difficulties in that kind of situation, on the basis of the suggestion made by the hon. Member for Gloucester, are far greater than if we continued the present policy of putting the onus on the shopkeeper to display a range of prices of goods.

9.15 p.m.

Mr. Ted Lead bitter:

I have a simple question which I wish to put to the Minister but which I shall try to answer myself as I go along. At the moment, I do not know the answer. I hope that my hon. Friend will be able to help me, because I for one want to make the maximum possible contribution to help the consumer.

The implementation of Clause 5 depends upon the passing of an order in the form of a statutory instrument, which presumably will have to be laid before this House and be subject either to the affirmative or to the negative procedure. The procedure to be adopted is of little consequence. But an order has to be made.

What puzzles me is how my right hon. Friend can inform the whole of the retail trade, which runs into many thousands of units and consists of small and medium-sized shopkeepers and the multiples. All of them will have to be informed of the range of prices that they will have to display once they have been given notice. That will necessarily involve a certain period of time following the placing of the necessary order before this House.

Past practice and experience shows that all other forms of information about retail prices have been supplied on the basis of a monthly calculation. To my knowledge, my right hon. Friend does not have the necessary machinery in her Department anyway. How can she inform the retail trade, through the procedure laid down in Clause 5, of the range of prices in such a way that will make sense after she has laid the order? The likelihood is that the prices will be out of date in any event.

I commend my right hon. Friend for wanting to make a contribution to the effort to control prices. I am sure that there is no real division of opinion in this House about that. But I shall be interested to hear how it is proposed to give the trade information which is still valid and not out of date.

Photo of Mrs Shirley Williams Mrs Shirley Williams , Hertford and Stevenage

The principle of the amendment was fully discussed in Committee but it might help if I say something about it again.

There is at any time a considerable range of prices which varies from supermarket to corner shop, even for subsidised goods. The difficulty for any Government is to deal with a situation in which we no longer have resale price maintenance, which none of us wants back, and there are flexible pricing arrangements according to different shops. As my hon. Friend the Member for Gloucestershire, West (Mr. Loughlin) said, people make a habit of shopping in particular shops, perhaps because of service or convenience, and are prepared to pay more. In the case of subsidised goods and certain others, however, one wants to ensure that maximum prices will be displayed by law and there will be a range to indicate to people that they are not always expected to pay the maximum price.

It is the Government's intention that price ranges will be used, at least at first, in respect of subsidised goods. In any other instance we should wish to consult the trade. The maximum price of subsidised goods does not change rapidly. The price would be held until applications had been made to the Price Commission, considered by it for up to 28 days, approved and then offset by subsidy. I have made it clear that we do not subsidise goods except on the basis of cost increases approved by the Price Commission.

Therefore, the apparently forceful point of my hon. Friend the Member for Hartlepool (Mr. Lead bitter), in practice, certainly for subsidised goods but also for many others in respect of which the range changes slowly, is not crucial or important. For example, the price of subsidised milk was held for many months. The price has hardly changed for many years and it is expected that the present price will last for many months.

Thus, in the most important sector—subsidised goods—there is no reason why the provisions in the Bill for consultation and negative procedure cannot be satisfied. The difficulty of course is that if one puts a maximum price for subsidised goods or those which are relatively stable in price in a shop which could sell well below that maximum price, the consumer is led to believe that that is the price. It would be nonsense for the Government to set a maximum price of 14½p a loaf in shops which could sell at 10½p, l1p or 12½p. That would be a force which drove prices up, not down.

Therefore a price range—I do not understand why such exception should be taken to it—tells the consumer, as is a fact of modern shopping life, that prices vary from shop to shop. I appreciate that there are difficulties in asking the trade to do this widely, and that traders would often object, but I am determined that we shall make familiar to consumers the concept of price ranges so that they realise the degree of choice they have in the prices they pay. In particular, I believe this can best be done in respect of many goods by widely publicising such price ranges, as is already done by some of the most enterprising local newspapers and also through local radio stations and so on.

The hon. Lady the Member for Gloucester (Mrs. Oppenheim) said that she thought that one efficient way of doing this—and I agree with her—was through the telephone service, and we have already instituted a pilot telephone service for giving information about movements of prices in London, with the intention of spreading it throughout the country as soon as we have been able to iron out the initial problems. We are, therefore, already doing what the hon. Lady asked for. No Government have gone that far.

We intend therefore to make information as widely available as possible to the consumer. We are already in the process of setting up well over 100 consumer advice centers, and we want those advice centers to be able to give consumers information about prices ranges. In an age when shopping is often complex and when it is not right to ask shoppers to shop around, the greatest possible information should be given to them, and I believe this can be done.

Of course, this can be done sensibly through using the mass media, the town halls, advice centers and so on. For this purpose we need price ranges. The information is already available, as it has been for many years, to Government Departments. The Department of Employment alone collects information on the prices of 80 items of foodstuffs every month, and I think it is high time that this sort of information was made available to housewives and not kept locked up in Government Departments for the

purposes of producing statistical tables. That is why Clause 5 is in the Bill—not because we intend to create the kind of wild jungle that the hon. Member for Gloucester talks about.

It would be impossible to display price ranges for every single item in every possible shop, but to take the powers to display price ranges leaves wide open the choice of goods and the extent to which one can ask shops to comply. In respect of goods other than subsidised goods, we intend to consult the trade.

Discussions that we have had with consumer organisations, at least one of which made a very detailed study of the position and of the use of price ranges, in a country which has had some success in the battle against inflation—namely. West Germany—have persuaded us that the use of price ranges has been an important weapon against inflation and it is the intention of the Government to make available to our consumers all the weapons that we can find which have been so very successful in other countries. I commend Clause 5 to the House.

Photo of Mrs Sally Oppenheim Mrs Sally Oppenheim , Gloucester

I do not think the right hon. Lady's answer has been very satisfactory. If it had been intended to restrict the display of these price range lists only to subsidised items she could have done that under Clause 2. Because she wants to extend it beyond that, she needs Clause 5. We do not want to keep the information locked up in Departments. We are merely saying that to display these complicated ranges in shops in addition to other information is not the best way of helping consumers. Indeed, it will often deceive them. It will make them shop around more than ever as they go searching for the lower end of the price range, which they may never even find.

Question put, That the amendment be made:—

The Committee divided: Ayes 217, Noes 271.

Division No. 39.]AYES[9.29 p.m.
Adley, RobertBell, RonaldBraine, Sir Bernard
Aitken, JonathanBennett, Dr. Reginald (Fareham)Brittan, Leon
Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)Benyon, W.Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)
Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)Biffen, JohnBruce-Gardyne, J.
Archer, Jeffrey (Louth)Blggs-Davison, JohnBryan, Sir Paul
Atkins, Rt.Hn.Humphrey (Spelthorne)Boscawen, Hon. RobertBuchanan-Smith, Alick
Awdry, DanielBowden, Andrew (Brighton, Kemptown)Bulmer, Esmond
Banks, RobertBoyson, Dr. Rhodes (Brent, N.)Burden, F. A.
Carlisle, MarkHowell, David (Guildford)Percival, Ian
Chalker, Mrs. LyndaHowell, Ralph (Norfolk, North)Pink, R. Bonner
Channon, PaulHowells, Geraint (Cardigan)Price, David (Eastleigh)
Chataway, Rt. Hn. ChristopherHunt, JohnPym, Rt. Hn. Francis
Churchill, W. S.Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye)Quennell, Miss J. M.
Clark, A. K. M. (Plymouth, Sutton)James, DavidRathbone, Tim
Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)Jenkin, Rt.Hn.P. (R'dgeW'std&W'fd)Redmond, Robert
Clegg, WalterJessel, TobyRees, Peter (Dover & Deal)
Cockcroft, JohnJohnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)Rees-Davies, W. R.
Cooke, Robert (Bristol, W.)Jones, Arthur (Daventry)Renton,Rt. Hn. SirDavid(H't'gd'ns're)
Cope, JohnKaberry, Sir DonaldRenton R. T. (Mid-Sussex)
Cordle, JohnKellett-Bowman, Mrs. ElaineRidley, Hn. Nicholas
Cormack, PatrickKimball, MarcusRifkind, Malcolm
Corrie, JohnKing, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)Rippon, Rt. Hn. Geoffrey
Costain, A. P.King, Tom (Bridgwater)Roberts Michael (Cardiff, N.-W.)
Crouch, DavidKnight, Mrs. JillRoberts Wyn (Conway)
Crowder, F. P.Lamont, NormanRoss, Stephen (Isle of Wight)
Davies, Rt. Hn. John (Knutsford)Lane, DavidRoss, Wm. (Londonderry)
Dean, Paul (Somerset, N.)Langford-Holt, Sir JohnRossi, Hugh (Hornsey)
Dixon, PiersLatham, Michael (Melton)Royle, Sir Anthony
Dodsworth, GeoffreyLawrence, IvanSainsbury, Tim
Drayson, BurnabyLawson, Nigel (Blaby)Shaw. Giles (Pudsey)
du Cann, Rt. Hn. EdwardLe Marchant, SpencerShaw, Michael (Scarborough)
Durant, TonyLester, Jim (Beeston)Shersby, Michael
Dykes, HughLewis, Kenneth (Rtland & Stamford)Silvester, Fred
Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)Lloyd, Ian (Havant & Waterloo)Sims, Roger
Elliott, Sir WilliamLoveridge, JohnSkeet, T. H. H.
Emery, PeterLuce, RichardSmith, Cyril (Rockdale)
Eyre. ReginaldMacArthur, IanSpicer, Jim (Dorset, W.)
Fairgrieve, RussellMacfarlane, NeilSpicer, Michael (Worcestershire, S.)
Farr, JohnMacGregor, JohnSproat, lain
Fenner, Mrs. PeggyMcLaren, MartinStanbrook, Ivor
Finsberg, GeoffreyMacmillan, Rt. Hn. M. (Farnham)Stanley, John
Fisher, Sir NigelMcNalr-WiIson, Michael (Newbury)Steel, David
Fletcher, Alexander (Edinburgh, N.)Madel, DavidSteen, Anthony (L'pool, Waver tree)
Fletcher-Cooke, CharlesMarshall, Michael (Arundel)Stewart, Ian (Hitchln)
Fookes, Miss JanetMarten, NeilStokes, John
Fowler, Norman (Sutton Coldfleld)Mather, CarolStradling Thomas, J.
Galbraith, Hn. T. G. D.Maude, AngusTapsell, Peter
Gardiner, George (Reigate&Banstead)Mawby, RayTaylor, Edward M. (Gl'gow, C'cart)
Gardner, Edward (S. Fylde)Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.Tebbit, Norman
Gibson-Watt, Rt. Hn. DavidMayhew,Patrick(RoyalT' bridgeWells)Temple-Morris, Peter
Gilmour,Rt.Hn.lan(Ch'sh'&Amsh'm)Miller, Hal (B'grove & R'dltch)Thatcher, Rt. Hn. Margaret
Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.)Mills, PeterTownsend C. D.
Glyn, Dr. AlanMiscampbell, NormanTrotter, Neville
Goodhew, VictorMitchell, David (Basingstoke)van Straubenzee, W. R.
Goodlad, A.Moate, RogerVaughan, Dr. Gerard
Gorst, JohnMoney, ErnieViggers, Peter
Gow, Ian (Eastbourne)Monro, HectorWaddington, David
Gower, Sir Raymond (Barry)Moore, J. E. M. (Croydon, C.)Wainwright, Richard (Colne Valley)
Wakeham, John
Grant, Anthony (Harrow, C.)More, Jasper (Ludlow)Walder, David (Clitheroe)
Gray, HamishMorgan, GeraintWall, Patrick
Grieve, PercyMorrison, Charles (Devizes)Walters, Dennis
Grimond, Rt. Hn. J.Morrison, Peter (City of Chester)Weatherill, Bernard
Grist, IanMudd, DavidWells, John
Grylls, MichaelNeubert, MichaelWinstanley, Dr. Michael
Gurden, HaroldNewton, Tony (Braintree)Winterton, Nicholas
Hall, Sir JohnNicholls, Sir HarmarWood, Rt. Hn. Richard
Hall-Davis, A. G. F.Nott, JohnWoodhouse, Hn. Christopher
Hampson, Dr. KeithOnslow, CranleyYoung, Sir George (Ealing, Acton)
Hannam JohnOppenheim, Mrs. SallyYounger, Hn. George
Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)Orr, Capt. L. P. S.
Harvie Anderson, Rt. Hn. MissPage, Rt. Hn. Graham (Crosby)TELLERS FOR THE AYES:
Hayhoe, BarneyParkinson, Cecil (Hertfordshire, S.)Mr. Michael Joplin and
Henderson. Barry (Dunbartonshire's.)Pattie GeoffreyMr. Marcus Fox.
Hooson, Emlyn
Abse, LeoBoothroyd. Miss BettyCarter, Ray
Allaun, FrankBottomed, Rt. Hn. ArthurCarter-Jones, Lewis
Archer, Peter (Wally, Wert)Boyden, James (Bishop Auckland)Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara
Ashton, JoeBradley, TomCremation, Ivor
Atkins, Ronald (Preston, N.)Broughton, Sir AlfredCocks, Michael
Atkinson, NormanBrown,Bob(NewcastleuponTyne,W)Cohen, Stanley
Bagier, Gordon, A. T.Brown, Hugh D. (Glasgow, Provan)Colquhoun, Mrs. M. N.
Barnett, Guy (Greenwich)Brown, Ronald (H kney, S. & Sh'ditch)Concannon, J. D.
Barnett, Joel (Heywood & Royton)Buchan, NormanConlan, Bernard
Bates, AlfBuchanan, Richard (G'gow.Springbrn)Cook, Robert F. (Edinburgh, C.)
Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony WedgwoButler,Mrs.Joyce(H'gey,WoodGreen)Cox, Thomas
Bennett, Andrew F. (Stockport,Callaghan, Jim (M'dd'ton & Pr'wich)Cralgen, J. M. (Ggow, Maryhlll)
Bishop, E. S.Campbell, IanCrawshaw, Richard
Blenkinsop, ArthurCant, R. B.Cronin, John
Booth, A'bartCarmichael, NellCrosland, Rt. Hn. Anthony
Cryer, G. R.Jay. Rt. Hn. DouglasPrescott. John
Cunningham,G.(lsl'ngt'n,S&F'sb'ry)Jeger, Mrs. LenaPrice, Christopher (Lewlsham, W.)
Cunningham,Dr.JohnA.(Whiteh'v'n-)Jenkins, Hugh (W'worth, Putney)Price, William (Rugby)
Dalyell, TarnJohn, BrynmorRadice, Giles
Davidson, ArthurJohnson, James(K'ston upon Hull,W)Reid, George
Davies, Bryan (Enfield, N.)Johnson, Walter (Derby, S.)Richardson, Miss Jo
Davies, Denzll (Llanelli)Jones, Barry (Flint, E.)Roberts, Albert (Normanton)
Davies, Ifor (Gower)Jones, Dan (Burnley)Roberts, Gwilym (Cannock)
Davis, Clinton (Hackney, C.)Jones, Gwynoro (Carmarthen)Robertson, John (Paisley)
Deakins, EricJones, Alec (Rhondda)Roderick, Caerwyn E.
Dean, Joseph (Leeds, W.)Judd, FrankRodgers, George (Chorley)
de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir GeoffreyKaufman, GeraldRodgers, William (Teesside, St'ckton)
Delargy, HughKelley, RichardRooker, J. W.
Dell, Rt. Hn. EdmundKerr, RussellRoper, John
Dempsey, JamesKilroy-Silk, RobertRose, Paul B.
Doig, PeterKinnock, NellRoss, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock)
Dormand, J. D.Lambie, DavidRowlands, Edward
Douglas-Mann, BruceLamborn, HarrySedge more, Bryan
Duffy, A. E. P.Lamont, JamesSelby, Harry
Dunn, James A.Latham, Arthur(CityofW'minsterP ton)Shaw, Arnold (Redbridge, llford, S.j
Dunnett, JackLawson. George (Motherwell&Wlshaw)Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (S'pney&P'plar)
Dunwoody, Mrs. GwynethLead bitter, TedShort, Rt. Hn. E. (N'ctle-u-Tyne)
Eadie, AlexLee, JohnSilkin, Rt. Hn. John (L'sham,D'ford)
Edelman, MauriceLestor, Miss Joan (Eton & Slough)Silkin,Rt.Hn.S.C.(S'hwark,Dulwlch)
Edge, GeoffLever, Rt. Hn. HaroldSillars, James
Edwards, Robert (W'hampton, S.E.)Lewis, Arthur (Newham, N.)Silverman, Julius
Ellis, John (Brigg & Scunthorpe)Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)Skinner, Dennis
Ellis, Tom (Wrexham)Loughlin, CharlesSmith, John (Lanarkshire, N.)
English, MichaelLyon, Alexander W. (York)Snape, Peter
Evans, Fred (Caerphilly)Lyons, Edward (Bradford, W.)Spearing, Nigel
Evans, loan (Aberdare)Mabon, Dr. J. DicksonSpriggs, Leslie
Evans, John (Newton)McElhone, FrankStallard, A. W.
Ewing, Harry (Stling.F'kirk&G'm'th)MacFarquhar. RoderickStewart, Donald (Western Isles)
Faulds, AndrewMcGuire, MichaelStewart, Rt. Hn. M. (H'sth, Fulh'm)
Fernyhough, Rt. Hn. E.Mackenzie, GregorStoddart, David (Swindon)
Fitch, Alan (Wigan)Maclennan, RobertStone house, Rt. Hn. John
Flannery, MartinMcMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.)Stott, Roger
Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)McNamara, KevinStrang, Gavin
Foot, Rt. Hn. MichaelMadden, M. O. F.Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R.
Ford, BenMagee, BryanSummerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley
Forrester, JohnMahon, SimonSwain, Thomas
Fowler, Gerry (The Wrekln)Mallalieu, J. P. W.Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)
Fraser, John (Lambeth, Norwood)Marks, KennethTierney, Sydney
Freeson, ReginaldMarquand, DavidTinn, James
Galpern, Sir MyerMarshall, Dr. Edmund (Goole)Tomlinson, John
Garrett, John (Norwich, S.)Mayhew, Christopher (G'wh.W'wch.E)Tomney, Frank
Garrett, W. E. (Wallsend)Meacher, MichaelTorney, Tom
George, BruceMellish, Rt. Hn. RobertTuck, Raphael
Gilbert, Dr. JohnMendelson, JohnUrwin, T. W.
Ginsburg, DavidMikardo, IanVarley, Rt. Hn. Eric G.
Golding, JohnMlllan, BruceWainwright, Edwin (Dearne Valley)
Gourlay, HarryMiller, Dr. M. S. (E. Kilbride)Walden, Brian (B'm'ham, Ladywood)
Graham, TedMitchell, R. C. (S'hampton, Itchen)Walker, Harold (Doncaster)
Grant, George (Morpeth)Molloy, WilliamWalker, Terry (Kingswood)
Grant, John (Islington, C.)Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)Watkins, David
Griffiths, Eddie (Sheffield, Brightslde)Morris, Rt. Hn. John (Aberavon)watt, Hamish
Hamilton, James (Bothwell)Moyle, RolandWeitzman, David
Hamilton, William (Fife, C.)Mulley, Rt. Hn. FrederickWell beloved, James
Hamling, WilliamMurray, Ronald KingWhite, James
Hardy, PeterNewens, Stanley (Harlow)Whitehead Phillip
Harper, JosephOakes, GordonWhitlock William
Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)Ogden, EricWigley, Dafydd (Caernarvon)
Hart, Rt. Hn. JudithO'Halloran, MichaelWilley, Rt. Hn. Frederick
Hattersley, RoyO'Malley, BrianWilliams, Alan (Swansea, W.)
Hatton, FrankOrbach, MauriceWilliams, Alan Lee(Hvrng, Hchurch)
Heffer, Eric S.Ovenden, JohnWilliams,Rt.Hn. Shirley(H'f'd&St'ge)
Henderson,Douglas (Ab'rd'nsh're.E)Owen, Dr. DavidWilliams, W. T. (Warrington)
Hooley, FrankPadley, WalterWilson, Gordon (Dundee, E.)
Horam, JohnPalmer, ArthurWoodall, Alec
Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey)Park. George (Coventry, N.E.)Woof, Robert
Hughes, Mark (Durham)Parker, John (Dagenham)Wrlgglesworth, Ian
Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, North)Parry, RobertYoung, David (Bolton, E.)
Hughes, Roy (Newport)Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred
Irvine, Rt. Hn. Sir A. (L'p'I.EdgeHill)Pendry, TomTELLERS FOR THE NOES:
Irving, Rt. Hn. Sydney (Dartford)Phipps, Dr. ColinMr. Donald Coleman and
Jackson ColinPrentice, Rt. Hn. RegMr. Ernest G. Perry.
Janner, Greville

Question accordingly negatived.

Mr. Deputy Speaker:

With regard to the points of order that were raised during the Division on new Clause 1, I undertook to make inquiries and check whether the proper allotment of time had been allowed for each stage of the Division. I have now made inquiries and I am satisfied, having checked the timing from two independent sources, that the proper allotment of time was allowed.

Amendment made: No. 17, in page 6, line 18, at end insert— '(4) Subsection (4A) of section 2 above shall apply to an order under this section as it applies to an order under subsection (1)(a) of that section except that consultation shall not be required as to the prices to be included in any order as constituting a range of prices applicable to goods of any description'.—[Mr. Maclennan.]