The hon. Member for Ilford, North (Mr. Iremonger) has raised an important issue affecting the education of children in his local authority of Redbridge. I am sorry that he takes the view that the care he has taken in making the case tonight will have no effect on the Department, my right hon. Friend or me. I refute the argument that the objectors who presented a petition and who made certain comments about their fears as to what the proposals under Section 13 would mean will be brushed off because we have closed minds and are not willing to examine the proposals.

I want to make it clear to the House, to the hon. Gentleman and to objectors that we have certain views about education. At the same time, we are concerned about every individual child. We shall deal with the Section 13 proposals, as we do with the many proposals that come to the Department, making sure that the children in the hon. Member's authority receive the best possible education.

I ought to spell out the situation about these Section 13 proposals. On 1st August 1973 the Redbridge local authority published public notices of its intention to reorganise the Ilford County High School for Girls under Section 13 of the 1944 Education Act. I was sorry to hear the immoderate tone used by the hon. Member about the proposal made by his own authority. The proposal is for that school and the Gearies Secondary Modern School for Girls to amalgamate and form a comprehensive school for approximately 1,050 boys and girls of all levels of ability between the ages of 11 and 18.

I could take the hon. Member to many schools much bigger than the proposed new school at Redbridge, where children are treated as individuals. These schools are run on lines which do not make for an impersonal community. All the children—those who are gifted, those who are naturally academic, and those who in the past have been neglected—are receiving an education fitting their ability and aptitude.

There is no ideal size for a school. To say that every school with more than 1,000 pupils is too big and ought not to be entertained is running against what is happening throughout the country educationally. The Gearies Girls building would house children in the age range 11 to 12, while the Ilford Girls building would house the rest—children from 13 to 18. Ultimately the authority proposes to replace the Gearies building by providing additional accommodation on the Ilford Girls site. The statutory two month period allowed for objections to the proposals to be made to the Secretary of State expired on 30th September 1973. We received a petition. I assure the House that petitions and individual letters from parents or interested groups are seriously considered in the Department. We have the best available advice. A petition of objection supported by over 16,000 people has been received, together with one letter of objection.

I was surprised to hear the hon. Gentleman say that teachers are determined to leave the borough if this proposal goes through. The House will be interested to know—I think that the hon. Member is aware of this and might have mentioned it instead of making the broad assertion that teaching opinion is against the proposal—that letters of support of the Section 13 proposals for reorganisation have been received from the Redbridge Teachers' Association and the Redbridge Schoolmasters' Association.

In accordance with my Department's normal practice—I underline the word "normal"—copies of the objections were sent to the Redbridge authority in early October 1973 and its comments were received on 11th February 1974. When we receive objections it is our practice to ask for the comments of the education authority and of those on the spot who should know what the objections mean. Information about accommodation at the existing schools and the proposed comprehensive school was not received from the authority until 22nd February 1974.

No decision has been made because the proposals from the authority and the representations from objectors as well as those from supporters raise points which require careful analysis and consideration. The House and, I hope, the hon. Gentleman will agree that the views of teachers who are to operate the new system should be taken carefully into consideration before we make our decision. There has been no undue delay by my Department in reaching a decision.

I do not wish to duck anything; I want to be frank. The proposals must be considered against the circular which sets out the Government's determined policy to abolish selection at all stages of secondary education. We believe that to persist with selection and the separation and segregation of children is not only wasteful of talent—and the evidence of that has come from all parts of educational opinion—but grossly unfair to the children. We cannot afford to wait until the perfect solution is available, if that is ever possible, and we are determined to approve only proposals which are educationally sound and viable.

My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State is carefully examining all the information available and will give his decision as soon as possible. I cannot prejudge that decision by commenting on the proposals and on the objections which the hon. Gentleman has, rightly and fairly, spelled out. However, regarding his assertion about the imposition of financial penalties, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has made it clear in a circular and from the Government Front Bench that in future resources for the building programme will not be allocated to authorities if they are to be used to perpetuate a system of selection.

The Government's policy, which we believe is sound education policy—we are not running away from it or ducking it; we are proud of it—is to abolish the wasteful process of selecting children and placing labels on them. Therefore, building resources will be so allocated as to enable authorities to pursue the principle which we believe is sound educationally.

We have said that we want authorities as far as possible to meet the needs of parents and teachers with regard to single sex schools. We certainly do not want to reduce standards anywhere, and we have proof that the new schools, far from lowering standards, are enhancing them. Never before have so many children been doing so well educationally, and many of them are doing very well in organised comprehensive schools. But a balance has to be struck and we take note of the local circumstances.

I end by giving the hon. Gentleman an assurance that all the objections he has raised tonight and which are included in the petition will be carefully considered. We are taking the best advice that is available and in the end we shall give our decision on the Section 13 proposals in the light of what is best for all the children in Redbridge. My right hon. Friend will make that decision as soon as possible.