Orders of the Day — Police Acts (Amendment) Bill

Part of the debate – in the House of Commons at 12:00 am on 23 February 1973.

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Photo of Mr Robert Carr Mr Robert Carr , Mitcham 12:00, 23 February 1973

Yes, indeed; I can confirm that. It will not only be the police and all the associations representing the various levels within the police forces; it will also be the police authorities; and it will also, as the hon. Member said, be anybody who may wish to put ideas to me about this. I do want to get on with it, but the consultations must be full. I cannot rush the consultations, in the sense of allowing them to be incomplete. I want to tell all those who will he involved that I wish to start on it quickly and get on with it urgently.

Another point which we shall have to take into account is that the actual investi- gation into complaints must continue to be carried out by a police officer. I know that there are those who are reluctant to accept this but, quite apart from the important considerations appropriate for the maintenance of a disciplined service, one has to come down to practical realities. One has to recognise that there are not enough people outside the police service with the necessary knowledge and expertise in police methods and problems to investigate the 15,000 complaints which have to be looked into every year. Quite apart from any argument about the principle of what should happen in a disciplined service, the hard practical reality is that investigation must continue to be carried out by a police officer.

There are two other important points I wish to mention. First, there must be full recognition of the independent element in the complaints procedure which is already provided by the Director of Public Prosecutions. When there is any question of the possibility of a criminal offence having been committed, the matter has to be referred to the Director of Public Prosecutions, and it is his decision whether to prosecute. These are wholly independent decisions about which my right hon. and learned Friend the Attorney-General is answerable to the House and on which he can be questioned in the House. In some cases—for example corruption—my right hon. and learned Friend has himself to sanction any prosecution These independent and impartial decisions of my right hon. and learned Friend and the Director of Public Prosecutions cannot be made the subject of review by any outside body, any more than they are at the moment in any other field.

Secondly, if the Director of Public Prosecutions decides that there is insufficient evidence to justify a criminal prosecution, it is out of the question to substitute a similar disciplinary offence on the identical evidence, because it would be wrong for disciplinary action on a particular alleged offence to be based on a lower standard of proof than would be required in the courts. This does not mean, however, that there may not be cases in which the misconduct falls short of being criminal but in which there is still ground for proceedings for some related offence—for example, neglect of duty—under the Police Disciplinary Code.

As will be clear from what I have said, I am in considerable sympathy with the broad objectives which the hon. Member for Derby, North is seeking to achieve by his Bill. The question which the House has to ask itself this afternoon is whether now is the moment to proceed with legislation. I say quite openly that I do not believe that it would be right to legislate at this moment. The new arrangements of the kind I have announced have to be worked out in the closest consultation with the police service authorities and after listening to any other views that people may want to put to me. It is of the utmost importance that the new scheme should have the support and confidence of the police service as well as of the public.

Even if at this juncture I felt able to advise the House about the small print of the Bill, I do not believe that the consultations could take place in the right atmosphere if within the timing of the Bill during the next two or three months those involved felt that they were under the pressure of legislation and the details were having to be written in legislative form at this stage.