Orders of the Day — Post Office (Borrowing) Bill

Part of the debate – in the House of Commons at 12:00 am on 10 November 1972.

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Photo of Mr Sydney Bidwell Mr Sydney Bidwell , Southall 12:00, 10 November 1972

Nothing is certain in politics. The time between now and the next General Election is unknown. For that reason, I cannot comment on my hon. Friend's intervention.

I appreciate that the Minister cannot comment on specific closure decisions, but I hope that he will turn his mind to the need to juxtapose machinery for checking what might turn out to be bureaucratic excesses.

The two Post Office closures that I have in mind was given some publicity in the London Evening News, following which I received several letters from other parts of the South of England voicing similar anxieties in other localities. In addition to the Post Office Users National Council and the Post Office itself, I have no doubt that the Minister has received similarly anxious letters.

I am not competent to comment on the Minister's observations concerning telecommunications developments. The prospects sound very exciting. Others of my hon. Friends are more competent to speak on these matters. However, perhaps I might be permitted to make one minor digression. I have always thought that when we speak of the importance of putting old people in touch by telephone, we ought to be equally anxious to put money in their pockets so that they may visit their families. It is not enough for them to be in telephonic communication, particularly if they have large families which cannot visit them. They need physical as well as intellectual stimulus, and they should be given the wherewithal to get about. The present rate of the national retirement pension is such that they are handicapped physically from visiting their families.

The weakness in the Minister's speech, despite the gentle attitude adopted by my hon. Friend the Member for Rutherglen (Mr. Gregor Mackenzie), was that he did not emphasise that the postal services are not simply a commercial entity. The Post Office Users National Council made some extremely pertinent observations in its 1971–72 Report on post office closures and reorganisation. In my view the Post Office is running ahead of itself.

I return to the specific closure in my own constituency. It has resulted in old-age pensioners having to cross a busy road junction in order to draw their pensions whereas before they used the sub-post office, which happened to be opposite a police station. In fact, one old lady wrote to tell me how happy and comforted she was by the nearness of the police station. I appreciate that a sub-post office cannot be kept open for the convenience of one old lady, but the office in question did a considerable amount of business.

I suspect that the problem in this case is that plans have been on the stocks for 20 years and that a somewhat doctrinaire attitude has been adopted to them. It has been forgotten that account ought to be taken of events in the intervening years. Every schoolboy knows that a considerable amount has happened in Southall in the last 20 years, especially in the way that old people have been affected by the changes that have come about. By and large, I am proud of the way in which the situation has been dealt with, because we have the largest Asian community in the country. To see this multi-racial, multi-political, multi-community activity protesting about the closure of these sub-post offices was a joy to behold.

According to the documents I have, not only do letters flow between the Minister, the Users Council and the Post Office, but telephones are used. Therefore, I hope that a telephone or two may be used to find out what this is all about. We are not asking for the moon. We are simply asking that the closure be delayed until we can ascertain the location of the new central post office. It is no longer the crown post office. We now have to be more up to date. However, I understand that the term is still used in the industry.

I make no apology to the House for making the most of this occasion for a constituency purpose. At the public meeting of protest there were present not only the Labour MP who was born in the district, but the prospective Conservative candidates who will oppose me at the next General Election, the President of the Chamber of Commerce, the President of the Indian Workers' Association, a representative of the old-age pensioners, and a representative of the Community Relations Council. Those people got together and came to the considered view that the closure should be delayed. Therefore, someone should take notice.

Earlier this year I had a letter from Lord Peddie of the Post Office Users National Council. In one paragraph he expresses considerable sympathy and has grave doubts about the location of the new post office. This situation can be multiplied all over the country. However, I have my eye very much on Southall High Street and Broadway. Lord Peddie's council questions the immediate plan of the juggernaut of the Post Office Board and the attitude of the local head postmaster, who wants to go ahead and seeks to justify the abrupt closure of two sub-post offices. One has already gone. There is no fierce argument about that at the moment. We are concerned about the other.

I ask the hon. Member for Hampstead—it is fortuitous that I should follow him this afternoon—to verify that in its report for 1971–72 the Users National Council, of which he is a member, recommends that sub-post office closures should not be substantial. The report acknowledges that in the changes there will be a lot of headaches and tears, but suggests that there should be some mitigation and that there should be a deep look at what is happening. It also suggests that any changes should be brought into gear more smoothly, so to speak, than would be the situation with an abrupt closure of two sub-post offices following the relocation of the main post office.

When the Users National Council takes a studied view, what happens? Surely the matter is not closed. I do not know what happens after that. I do not want the position to be "We told you so." I want it tested on a completely different basis. I want the matter carried over so that we can check whether the local head postmaster's attitude and argument is correct about custom falling away. In fact, custom has increased recently. The postmaster's earnings have increased by virtue of the closure of the office at the other end of the town. However, that may not always be so, and we must keep an open mind about it.

There has been a great technological revolution regarding telephone changes and the provision of telephones, telecommunications, and so forth, about which I am not competent to speak. But associated with the telephone business is the criteria of service. Representatives of the Post Office Board attended before the Select Committee on Nationalised Industries. I have here the Second Report of that Committee. One passage I have marked, referring to the rÔle of consultative bodies, states: If this is to be their rÔle then consultative bodies should be at arm's length from their industry and seen to be so. It is the duty of the boards to manage their respective industries. With respect to my hon. Friend the Member for Ealing, North (Mr. Molloy) who earlier made his usual vigorous intervention, it is inevitable when an Act like the 1969 Act is pushed through Parliament that there should be questions on the day-to-day administration of the Post Office. I always thought it a bit much that the Postmaster-General, as he used to be, should be asked why a telephone kiosk had been put outside somebody's bedroom instead of on a green space across the road. While it is important to gain the ear of the Minister on a regular routine basis, if that should be the situation we should be wide open all the time to asking, for example, the Minister for Transport Industries why a particular train is cancelled in consequence of a foggy morning. It is better for us to try to see the chairman of the board than to ask questions which the Minister has to sub-let in any case and we get very much the same result in the end.

Concerning the consultative machinery or the Users National Council being kept at arm's length, that is inevitable, and there is a lot of logic in what was put before the Select Committee. However, I do not want it to develop to a bargepole's length, which seems to be happening in this instance. I claim and demand that attention be paid to this matter now. This is a national pattern to which the Minister should address his mind.