Northern Ireland (Education and Libraries)

Part of the debate – in the House of Commons at 12:00 am on 14 July 1972.

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Photo of Mr Paul Channon Mr Paul Channon , Southend West 12:00, 14 July 1972

I thought that was the position and I am glad the hon. Gentleman has confirmed it.

The hon. Member for Leeds, South asked about educational achievements in non-denominational schools. Some are better, some are worse but, as the hon. Member for Bootle (Mr. Simon Mahon) said, the standard is fairly constant and certainly as high as anywhere else in the United Kingdom. The hon. Member for Leeds, South also asked about libraries and their staffing. I understand that close attention is paid to the practice in the rest of the United Kingdom, so there should not be an enormous difference.

It is not quite true that there are no comprehensive schools in Northern Ireland. My hon. Friend the Member for Armagh (Mr. Maginnis) will know of the one at Fivemiletown. There are comprehensive schools at Newry and Bushmills, and my hon. Friend the Member for Armagh referred to the partially comprehensive system in Armagh. But I accept that there are comparatively few comprehensive schools in Northern Ireland.

We shall await with interest what the advisory council has to say on comprehensive schools. Were there to be changes in the system, with the enormous number of voluntary grammar schools—not only Catholic voluntary grammar schools—the practical complications would be great, but, these will have to be considered in the future if a decision has to be taken. I note what was said about Lord Boyle's remarks. I shall study them, but I do not think that the hon. Member would expect me to take any action in advance of the report of the advisory council.

The hon. Member for Bootle suggested a visit by hon. Members to Northern Irish schools. Nothing would please me more. Perhaps we should defer it until the autumn as the school holidays have begun in Northern Ireland. If the hon. Member remains interested in the idea, nothing would please me more than for such a visit to be arranged in the autumn; I think it would be extremely valuable. A visit to the schools would make a change from the conditions which hon. Members so often see when they vsit Northern Ireland.

The hon. Member for Antrim, North (Rev. Ian Paisley) raised several points, some of which were mildly reminiscent of his remarks in the Second Reading debate in Stormont. Those who have had the pleasure of reading what he said then will realise what a powerful contribution he made, and I have taken fully into consideration all he said on that occasion.

The hon. Member for Antrim, North asked about the dismissal of teachers. Teachers have an express right of appeal to the Ministry and their position is pro- tected in that way. I must mildly draw swords with the hon. Member on what he said about the appointment of teachers without advertisement and his reading of schedule 10, paragraph 2. The exception is made only when two conditions are satisfied. The first is that the school management committee to which the appointment is to be made has given its consent. The second is that the teacher is a teacher either in the school to which the appointment is being made, or in a controlled school—if we are dealing with controlled schools—under the same management. Non-advertisement is intended to be the exception. It is not reasonable that all positions should be advertised. There must occasionally be scope for promotions within a concern or a transfer of teachers who would otherwise become redundant. I accept the hon. Gentleman's point that non-advertisement should be very much the exception rather than the rule. However, I feel that the two qualifications I have outlined are a little deeper than the hon. Member thought.

The hon. Gentleman raised the question of instruction in religious education which, he said, should be given by the clergy and not by the teachers. I understand his point of view. There is already a right of access in article 16(7) of the order given to clergymen and other suitable persons if parents so wish. That does not answer the point but at least it is some help.

The hon. Gentleman mentioned the question of technical intermediate colleges. Article 54 makes it a duty for area boards to provide adequate facilities for further education. This imposes a duty on boards to provide technical education sufficient to meet demands. I have no wish to see technical education in any way harmed. I would like to see technical colleges with specialised equipment playing an important part in the education of students of 15 and 16. I have not yet had the opportunity to study in detail the problems relating to technical schools to which the hon. Gentleman referred. I know that there are problems in his constituency and in other parts of Northern Ireland, particularly in the constituency of the hon. Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone (Mr. McManus). I should like to look at this matter.

I was then asked by the hon. Gentleman about special care teachers at Muckamore Abbey and I will look at that point. I see no reason why they should be put at a disadvantage, and I will do my best to try to meet the point.

The hon. Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone and others raised the question of teacher representation on area boards. I do not believe that such representation is as inadequate as some hon. Members have suggested. For the first time these provisions make it a statutory duty for the Minister to appoint three teachers to the area board. In many ways the Northern Ireland provisions are an advance on the situation in the United Kingdom. In England there is no statutory duty on local education authorities to have teachers on local education committees. Teachers may be co-opted on to these committees but there is no statutory duty for them to be members. Therefore these provisions for Northern Ireland are a great step forward, and I hope that the teachers will regard this as an important advance.

My hon. Friend the Member for Armagh mentioned the question of the Armagh Museum. Museums are not covered by the order, although I am looking at the situation of this museum and its future in conjunction with my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary. I shall be in touch with my hon. Friend about that matter. I shall see whether I can provide a list of changes from the Bill.

The hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, North (Mr. McNamara) asked about institutes of further education. I have every wish to encourage them, and I am particularly interested in the future of the Londonderry Technical College and whether it might be used possibly as a regional college to cater not only for immediate facilities but for a wider region. I hope to meet representatives of the college in the not too distant future and I will bear in mind what has been said.

My hon. Friend the Member for Down, North made an interesting speech in which he put a number of important points. I was glad he mentioned articles 25 and 26, which are a step forward.

I was interested in my hon. Friend's comments about the Youth Employment Service and I will study what he said. This service has a most important function in Northern Ireland and I understand that it has visited every school in the Province. Every hon. Member will feel great sympathy for the Youth Employment Service which has suffered a most appalling series of bomb outrages. It has been bombed seven times and has had an extremely bad time. I pay tribute to that service for carrying on its activities in a very difficult situation.

My hon. Friend said that there were not sufficient local authority representatives on the area boards. I wonder about that. After all, 40 per cent. is quite a lot. I shall be giving the breakdown figures for a likely board presently. However, the position is not too bad with 40 per cent. of the representatives coming from local authorities. I agree it is very difficult to get the balance right.

My hon. Friend asked about senior appointments. That has not been finally decided. My own guess is that it would be principals to start with and probably vice-principals, and that it it could be extended further if the system proved a success. Certainly I assure my hon. Friend that the supply of teachers will be available to the voluntary maintained schools as well. This matter has been raised with me on a number of occasions. There is nothing in the order to prevent that happening.

My hon. Friend then asked about the professional librarians. They may be appointed to boards but not to the boards actually employing them.

The area boards will have between 30 and 36 members. That is the intention Let us assume that the figure is 36. That will mean 40 per cent. being nominated by district councils; up to 25 per cent. by the transferors' representatives and representatives of the trustees of maintained schools; three teachers; three persons with interests in the public library service; and the remainder persons interested in education and libraries in general. Out of the 36; 14 would be district councillors; a maximum of nine representing the transferors' representatives and trustees of the maintained schools—there would never be the nine; the maximum would be seven or eight—three teachers, three with interests in the library service; and a balance of seven. That is not too bad, I think. The Ministry will have no control over the first category and will accept nominations for the second. The Ministry's control is a little less than some hon. Members have supposed.

I have referred already to nursery schools. Indeed, I think I have dealt with a great many of the points raised in the debate. Naturally I shall consider any thing else that has been referred to——